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Lawsuit Question

Discuss any legal issues pertaining to karaoke.
mnementh
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Post by mnementh » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:36 am

Bigdog wrote:The aluminum foil sandwiched in the plastic of the music disks was not put there in a clean environment..,..the aluminum foil became infected with oxidation particles....look at your aluminum screen door... That's oxidation....It's occurring inside each and ever disk...I have SOUND CHOICE discs that look like swiss cheese when you hold them up to the light...so even in a drawer not being used they could disappear....

Technically they said CDs would last 50 years....Not so....now if the foil was gold...It would last forever...except for external scratches on the plastic...
Actually Bigdog, while you are "technically" correct in your "sandwich" comment, it's not strictly speaking, correct.

Surprisingly, CD's are produced in very much the same way as a vinyl record by initially pressing from a "Master" copy.

Thereafter, it changes dramatically in how the Aluminium (note the correct spelling of Aluminium, by the way for the benefit of my American cousins 8) layer is produced.

The layer is vapour deposited on the Polycarbonate substrate in Vacuum, therefore in the total absence of Oxygen, so NO Oxide on the front surface is possible.

A micro-thin laquer coat is then immediately applied to the back of the disc, then any artwork is silk-screend on.

Please note and trust me on it, this is INVARIABLY done in a clean room of some description.

There are two main causes of CD damage;

1) bad handling damaging the BACK coating of the CD that is very thin and can't be easily repaired, while the front, much thicker layer, CAN be filled with suitable refractive index plastic, or polished.

2) the one that will hurt every KJ and Dj's feelings most, simply pausing a disc for extended periods when cuing up a track.

People don't appear to understand that a Laser, even a low power CD Laser is a HIGH ENERGY beam of light and will heat up anything it strikes.

When you cue a track up, all that happens is the Laser is switched off for one revolution and switched back on when it hits the cued up portion of the selected track, many times a second for as long as the CD is paused.

Result, that one spot gets hotter and hotter, 'till eventually the Aluminium burns away, leaving a visible hole.

If you don't believe me, play a CD all the way through then immediately take it out of the drive. You'll find it's pretty damn warm, I betcha.

In theory, assuming the BACK coating is sound, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Aluminium layer to Oxidise, basically EVER.

Sandy.



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wiseguy
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Post by wiseguy » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:55 am

dad47 wrote:I have never copied them I just use them as they came. We have a good time with them but money never has been exchanged for anykind of show.
As Bigdog stated, CDG discs will deteriorate with age which means you would have to buy them again... if you could even find them that is. The smart thing is to back them up to a hard drive in the MP3+G format that can be used to create new CDG discs when the originals will no longer play. There is nothing wrong with backing up your investment, and since you don't perform professionally, you don't need to worry about the format shifting BS.

Bigdog
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Post by Bigdog » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:56 pm

mnementh wrote:
Bigdog wrote:The aluminum foil sandwiched in the plastic of the music disks was not put there in a clean environment..,..the aluminum foil became infected with oxidation particles....look at your aluminum screen door... That's oxidation....It's occurring inside each and ever disk...I have SOUND CHOICE discs that look like swiss cheese when you hold them up to the light...so even in a drawer not being used they could disappear....

Technically they said CDs would last 50 years....Not so....now if the foil was gold...It would last forever...except for external scratches on the plastic...
Actually Bigdog, while you are "technically" correct in your "sandwich" comment, it's not strictly speaking, correct.

Surprisingly, CD's are produced in very much the same way as a vinyl record by initially pressing from a "Master" copy.

Thereafter, it changes dramatically in how the Aluminium (note the correct spelling of Aluminium, by the way for the benefit of my American cousins 8) layer is produced.

The layer is vapour deposited on the Polycarbonate substrate in Vacuum, therefore in the total absence of Oxygen, so NO Oxide on the front surface is possible.

A micro-thin laquer coat is then immediately applied to the back of the disc, then any artwork is silk-screend on.

Please note and trust me on it, this is INVARIABLY done in a clean room of some description.

There are two main causes of CD damage;

1) bad handling damaging the BACK coating of the CD that is very thin and can't be easily repaired, while the front, much thicker layer, CAN be filled with suitable refractive index plastic, or polished.

2) the one that will hurt every KJ and Dj's feelings most, simply pausing a disc for extended periods when cuing up a track.

People don't appear to understand that a Laser, even a low power CD Laser is a HIGH ENERGY beam of light and will heat up anything it strikes.

When you cue a track up, all that happens is the Laser is switched off for one revolution and switched back on when it hits the cued up portion of the selected track, many times a second for as long as the CD is paused.

Result, that one spot gets hotter and hotter, 'till eventually the Aluminium burns away, leaving a visible hole.

If you don't believe me, play a CD all the way through then immediately take it out of the drive. You'll find it's pretty damn warm, I betcha.

In theory, assuming the BACK coating is sound, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Aluminium layer to Oxidise, basically EVER.

Sandy.
Sounds good....except I still say unless the aluminum (aluminium spelled this way gets kicked out by my spell checker...just saying) :) If that aluminum is not kept in an environment that is oxygen free the entire time from it's very birth when it was poured at the smelter, until it's used in any process...the chance is there for oxyidation...even just laying around as an ingot in a warehouse it's oxydizing...

I worked in a specialty steel mill and watched them pour steel into molds and they used nitrogen to purge the molds of oxygen (the air we breath is full of many unwanted dirty elements....) before they poured in an attempt to minimize the amount of occulsions (I think that was the term) in the steel when it was rolled out.

A tiny pin prick dot in the steel when it gets rolled out could turn into something a foot long or longer depending upon the starting size and on how thin the steel gets rolled. Aluminum foil sheets are extremely thin so occlusions would be detrimental in anything that thin...

Now the hot laser could be hitting an occlusion from the dirt already in the foil and bending/distorting the laser light so it causes a hotter than normal spot which burns up the foil....... which is still the result of dirty aluminum in the first place....

I still say it's impossible to create a perfect CD and if you think about it....those disc companies don't care if your disc doesn't last 50 years....They are also so cheap why should they? Gold foil is the only way and it would still have to be 100% pure......which they can't even do yet...I've seen 999999999% but never 100% :) I highly doubt they ever worry about aluminum that much..

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wiseguy
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Post by wiseguy » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:40 pm

In the U.S. the correct spelling is "aluminum". We're the U.S.A. and we don't give a crap about how the rest of the world spells things. :)

Regardless of how well a CD is manufactured over time Oxygen can, and will, migrate through the polycarbonate layer or the hard lacquer layer causing oxidation and deterioration. Normal use of the discs subjects them to minor scratches or cracks that can accelerate this. Environmental conditions play a big part in the life expectancy of a compact disc but none will last forever no matter how they are stored.

Bigdog
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Post by Bigdog » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:43 am

I have the scrap discs to prove it....

The bottom line is for whatever reason they are worth trying to preserve by doing a format shift. :wink:

mnementh
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Post by mnementh » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:05 am

wiseguy wrote:In the U.S. the correct spelling is "aluminum". We're the U.S.A. and we don't give a crap about how the rest of the world spells things. :)
Unless something has changed, you guys speak ENGLISH 8) so it's Aluminium, Sulphur (with a PH, not an F ) and don't even get me started on how you pronounce solder :oops: . Did somebody steal the "L", or what???? :roll:

Sandy

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wiseguy
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Post by wiseguy » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:13 am

mnementh wrote:
wiseguy wrote:In the U.S. the correct spelling is "aluminum". We're the U.S.A. and we don't give a crap about how the rest of the world spells things. :)
Unless something has changed, you guys speak ENGLISH 8) so it's Aluminium, Sulphur (with a PH, not an F ) and don't even get me started on how you pronounce solder :oops: . Did somebody steal the "L", or what???? :roll:

Sandy
No, we speak American... a perfected version of the English language.

The Lone Ranger
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Post by The Lone Ranger » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:57 am

8) I did get the conformation of the RICO charges filed against SC, from the lead attorney on that case Jim Harrington. He posted a reply on the KS forum. It seems in CAVS USA v.s. Sound Choice, CAVS amended it's charges to include what it called civil RICO. No criminal charges attached but their are monetary penalties that attach. Of course Jim claims the charges have no merit, he is the lead attorney what else can he say? This case is still pending if some verdict is handed down, it will be interesting to see what the judge does.

Bigdog
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Post by Bigdog » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:17 am

OK so CAVS manufactures and sells karaoke machines loaded with songs on hard drives....not exactly KJs but considering the issue is their hard drives this is an important case for all of us PIRATES... :twisted: OK :roll:

The Lone Ranger
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Post by The Lone Ranger » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:00 am

8) Bigdog SC also went out of it's way to tell CAVS customers that their products were illegal and damaged the image of the company. They are being sued for liable along with many other charges. CAVS is seeking 15 million in damages. Couple this with the publishers suing in the EMI case and SC will have to license quite a few GEM series to pay plaintiffs if they lose even one of these cases. What I like the most about this it's the big boys going after SC, and for once they will know what it's like to be the accused.

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wiseguy
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Post by wiseguy » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:56 am

Best of all is that the money they must spend to defend themselves is money they don't have to persecute legitimate KJs.

Bigdog
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Post by Bigdog » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:39 am

I say each KJ that has been served by them should file RICO countersuit....

If they can accuse everyone so can the KJs

I think they are guilty of fraud and perjury because they told every KJ in the world they could do a format shift of their products....and then they turned around and said...we were only kidding see you in court....that was fraud...deliberate misrepresentation..probably because they were setting everyone up for the coming lawsuits....and they lied about giving us permission

The Lone Ranger
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Post by The Lone Ranger » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:11 am

8) There are some that argue Bigdog that the manus can't give permission since they don't own the rights to the underlying material they have shifted for their own commercial use. That is why EMI is suing them SC did not bother to get the proper licensing from the publishers to make their product in the first place. Jim Harrington their lead counsel said "all material is free as long as you are willing to assume the risk". Harrington is planning on beating EMI on a technicality, statute of limitations. He is saying no new product was made or sold for over three years prior to EMI filing their suit. So if you do shift as long as it has been three years since your last public performance, I guess the statute of limitations would apply and SC couldn't sue you. I think it's just one huge con job they are selling insurance on something they don't own in the first place. What they are really saying is if you pay us off we won't tell the publishers about your illegal activity. If that is the case aren't they guilty of aiding in the commission of a crime by not reporting it? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Bigdog
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Post by Bigdog » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:19 pm

I guess I'm good to go...I haven't done a show in 20 years... :wink:

Prove it...

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