So I'm sitting here right now looking at the 4 channel compressor I'll be adding to my rig tomorrow. This will be my new microphone compressor and the old compressor is going to go on my main mix. So as I sit here drooling over my new toy, I got to wonderiing, how many KJ's out there are actually using compression?
I know a lot of the powered mixers on the market today (especially Yamaha) come with built in compression on the Mic channels. Additionally, Yamaha has a new line of passive mixers with compression. But for most, a compressor is an add-on processor and I'm curious how many have made the investment.
Back before I started this business, when I was a singer rather than a KJ, the difference between those with and without wasn't too noticable to me. However now that I've been doing this for a while when I go to a show that doesn't use compression on the vocals it's almost painful (think ice pick in the eye peaks). So I'm trying to gauge the prevailing feeling among KJ's. Do you think using a compressor is overkill for karaoke or is it something you have added or would like to add to your rig?
How many of you compress???
Compression on the microphones is used to keep from blowing out your speakers...
Distortion kills them. Compression keeps the syne waves from going square. Speakers or other equipment can not handle square waves...
You do not need it on the music. Just keep the gains from redlining on the music. There will never be karaoke music that spikes that loud. But for the microphones use compression. So when you have an idiot that thinks he should be screaming at the top of his lungs because he thinks it's cute...your speakers will be protected..
Distortion kills them. Compression keeps the syne waves from going square. Speakers or other equipment can not handle square waves...
You do not need it on the music. Just keep the gains from redlining on the music. There will never be karaoke music that spikes that loud. But for the microphones use compression. So when you have an idiot that thinks he should be screaming at the top of his lungs because he thinks it's cute...your speakers will be protected..
Umm actually big dog that's not accurate. Limiters prevent clipping (Squaring of the wave form). Now compressors can be configured to act solely as limiters and many (such as the four channel I just received) have them built in. However a compressor is used to decrease the overall dynamic range (the difference in signal level between the peaks and floor) of the signal sent to it creating a smoother overall level.
So yes I've got compression/limiters on each individual microphone channel. That serves two purposes. The first is as you said, protecting my PA equipment. The second is to level off the dynamic range keeping the peaks lower and allowing me to bring up the lower level signals. The end result is an easier mix and vocals that are MUCH more pleasant to the ears.
Now as far as the compression on the main mix, I've added that as well but for different reasons. First, the Stereo DBX compressor I'm using for that also includes a high quality gate. The gate helps eliminate the noise that gets introduced by effects processors, etc. Second, goes back to dynamic range. By applying compression to the overall mix, vocals have more presence while preserving the headroom of the mixer and amps.
So anyway, enough with the crash course on compression. It looks like Bigdog is the only one other than me (I'm assuming you are although you really didn't say) that uses compression? I'm curious though why others don't. Not worth it, never realized it was there, etc?
So yes I've got compression/limiters on each individual microphone channel. That serves two purposes. The first is as you said, protecting my PA equipment. The second is to level off the dynamic range keeping the peaks lower and allowing me to bring up the lower level signals. The end result is an easier mix and vocals that are MUCH more pleasant to the ears.
Now as far as the compression on the main mix, I've added that as well but for different reasons. First, the Stereo DBX compressor I'm using for that also includes a high quality gate. The gate helps eliminate the noise that gets introduced by effects processors, etc. Second, goes back to dynamic range. By applying compression to the overall mix, vocals have more presence while preserving the headroom of the mixer and amps.
So anyway, enough with the crash course on compression. It looks like Bigdog is the only one other than me (I'm assuming you are although you really didn't say) that uses compression? I'm curious though why others don't. Not worth it, never realized it was there, etc?
This is accurate....
Decreasing the dynamic range (with compression), preventing the waves from becoming to high and turning in to square waves = no distortion.
Limiter sets a cut off point that kills everything (All Sound) above the set point. Over the set point = no sound, period.
A Gate will kill unwanted noise between songs. Like interference or buzz or hum. And only allows sound after a certain set point point. No sound under the set point. It takes a certain level of sound to "open" the gate.
Compression sqwishes the waves to allow all of the dynamics to be heard. They are all there, but in a compressed configuration. (Smaller wave) Greatly lessoning the chance of distortion.
Comprsssion of the music is not needed. The music has already been corrected by the manufacturer of the disc. There will never be outragious spikes coming from the music unless you have the gain structure set to high, causing distortion. Using compression on the music will cut the dynamics of the music. I want my music to sound as rich and full as it can be. You are defeating your full music sound.
COMPRESSION
Microphones ...yes
Music ...no
Decreasing the dynamic range (with compression), preventing the waves from becoming to high and turning in to square waves = no distortion.
Limiter sets a cut off point that kills everything (All Sound) above the set point. Over the set point = no sound, period.
A Gate will kill unwanted noise between songs. Like interference or buzz or hum. And only allows sound after a certain set point point. No sound under the set point. It takes a certain level of sound to "open" the gate.
Compression sqwishes the waves to allow all of the dynamics to be heard. They are all there, but in a compressed configuration. (Smaller wave) Greatly lessoning the chance of distortion.
Comprsssion of the music is not needed. The music has already been corrected by the manufacturer of the disc. There will never be outragious spikes coming from the music unless you have the gain structure set to high, causing distortion. Using compression on the music will cut the dynamics of the music. I want my music to sound as rich and full as it can be. You are defeating your full music sound.
COMPRESSION
Microphones ...yes
Music ...no
A limiter and a clipper are two different things bigdog. A limiter is a hard-knee compressor with a high threshold, high ratio, fast attack, and quick release. However you don't configure a limiter that way, you just set the threshold and it does it's business. A clipper cuts off the signal at the clipping point (threshold) causing square waveforms and therefore distortion.
A compressor is completely different and used for a much greater array of uses. Decreasing dynamic range does a lot more than just reduce peaks. You reduce the peaks and set your gain make-up such that you get an overall smoother vocal. A limiter does not use gain makeup and only attacks peaks.
Look at it this way, a common threshold for a clipper would be +20dB and anything above that is stopped dead. A limiter will usually have a Threshold of between +5 and +15 dB and the high attack ratio and hard knee mean that you'll seldom if ever get beyond +15 on the VU. A typical vocal compression setting starts the attack at between -20 and -10 dB with a light ratio and the signal before gain makeup will rarely reach the 0 dB mark.
Your last comment about cutting the dynamics causing your music to not sound as full and rich is laughable. I can see the point someone might make that it's not needed due to the fact that you are using a finished track, however to say it will reduce the quality of your music shows a complete lack of understanding of the concept of compression. Your still stuck on the idea that a compressor is only used to limit peaks and that simply isn't the case.
Now I don't expect anyone here to be a professional sound engineer, we are KJ's for crying out loud. However, I do expect that you not make inaccurate statements and then argue with a more informed correction just to save face. You've told us you work with a sound engineer on your rig, go ask him and you'll find that the world of compression is a lot more than just limiting peaks to protect your equipment.
A compressor is completely different and used for a much greater array of uses. Decreasing dynamic range does a lot more than just reduce peaks. You reduce the peaks and set your gain make-up such that you get an overall smoother vocal. A limiter does not use gain makeup and only attacks peaks.
Look at it this way, a common threshold for a clipper would be +20dB and anything above that is stopped dead. A limiter will usually have a Threshold of between +5 and +15 dB and the high attack ratio and hard knee mean that you'll seldom if ever get beyond +15 on the VU. A typical vocal compression setting starts the attack at between -20 and -10 dB with a light ratio and the signal before gain makeup will rarely reach the 0 dB mark.
Your last comment about cutting the dynamics causing your music to not sound as full and rich is laughable. I can see the point someone might make that it's not needed due to the fact that you are using a finished track, however to say it will reduce the quality of your music shows a complete lack of understanding of the concept of compression. Your still stuck on the idea that a compressor is only used to limit peaks and that simply isn't the case.
Now I don't expect anyone here to be a professional sound engineer, we are KJ's for crying out loud. However, I do expect that you not make inaccurate statements and then argue with a more informed correction just to save face. You've told us you work with a sound engineer on your rig, go ask him and you'll find that the world of compression is a lot more than just limiting peaks to protect your equipment.
OK for everyone's sake here, and that includes you bigdog, I did a little searching on the internet to find an academic source that discusses the differences between the three items I've discussed here. Take a look at the link below to Columbia University's Department of Music. You'll find that this piece of course material supports what I've been telling you.
http://www.music.columbia.edu/cmc/cours ... ssors.html
http://www.music.columbia.edu/cmc/cours ... ssors.html
I don't want to do anything to my music to diminish it in any way. So I'll never compress my music. Microphones yes, always. Never music.
It still doesn't explain why you need to compress or do anything else to the professionally recreated music. It's not good enough for you????
That means I will have no limiter or compression or clipper or anything else that you want to do to your music.
It still doesn't explain why you need to compress or do anything else to the professionally recreated music. It's not good enough for you????
That means I will have no limiter or compression or clipper or anything else that you want to do to your music.
Compression doesn't do anything to diminish the music Bigdog, that's what I'm trying to help you understand. Compression is used to enhance the final product. I'm not trying to defend using compression on the final mix, that was the purpose of my original question was to find out how many use it and at what points in the mix. It may be overkill to have compression on the main mix but it is certainly not going to diminish the quality of the music. That's a comment made out of misunderstanding of how compression works and the effects it has.
I told you why I use it on the main mix. First, it gives me a noise gate (since my Stereo Compressor has a gate built in) so that my speakers are virtually silent if there's no signal. I get no hums, no processor noise, or anything of the sort. Second and more importantly, it enhances the vocal presence of the singer when mixed with the music track. Yes the professional music track is already well processed. However, once you introduce vocals and effects, you now have new signals from additional sources that aren't a part of that professional mix. Bringing it all together in the mix creates a whole new signal. Using compression I can ensure solid vocal presence in addition to enhanced music quality.
Now, maybe it's overkill, maybe not. I use compression at the main mix because I'm very particular about my sound quality to the point of being obsessive. So maybe it's more than needed for Karaoke (and again that was the point of my original question) however to suggest that it somehow diminishes the audio quality of my show is a absolute joke.
I told you why I use it on the main mix. First, it gives me a noise gate (since my Stereo Compressor has a gate built in) so that my speakers are virtually silent if there's no signal. I get no hums, no processor noise, or anything of the sort. Second and more importantly, it enhances the vocal presence of the singer when mixed with the music track. Yes the professional music track is already well processed. However, once you introduce vocals and effects, you now have new signals from additional sources that aren't a part of that professional mix. Bringing it all together in the mix creates a whole new signal. Using compression I can ensure solid vocal presence in addition to enhanced music quality.
Now, maybe it's overkill, maybe not. I use compression at the main mix because I'm very particular about my sound quality to the point of being obsessive. So maybe it's more than needed for Karaoke (and again that was the point of my original question) however to suggest that it somehow diminishes the audio quality of my show is a absolute joke.
The owner of the music store where I bought my PA system has his own $150,000 PA system. He sets up for acts like Billy Graham and Gosple stuff plus local arenas. He set up my system when I bought it. And he recommended that the music didn't need to be compressed. He uses $3500 vocal microphones to give you an idea of what we're talking about. He always compresses those.
Maybe for "live" music you compress because the instruments are usually miked anyway..., but it's not needed for canned music.
Maybe for "live" music you compress because the instruments are usually miked anyway..., but it's not needed for canned music.
I think both Bigdog and Tony make valid points here. Tony is correct in stating that compression does not diminish the sound of recorded music. Bigdog is correct in stating that compression is normally not necessary with modern recorded music. So what the general public can gather from this is that you should use compression to protect your speakers from the live vocals and that it will not hurt to apply compression to the final mix.
If as you say, compression does nothing to the sound, turn the compressor the whole way to maximum and see if you can hear or like what you hear. The slightest amount of compression starts to effect what you hear. That is the reason for it. By sqwashing down the sound waves you are directly effecting the final outcome.
Dude seriously do you even understand that what you just said makes no sense? Turn what up to the maximum? The Ratio? The Threshold? The Attack? The Release? Saying turn up the compressor all the way is like saying turn up the EQ all the way (um which frequency would you like pushed all the way).Bigdog wrote:If as you say, compression does nothing to the sound, turn the compressor the whole way to maximum and see if you can hear or like what you hear. The slightest amount of compression starts to effect what you hear. That is the reason for it. By sqwashing down the sound waves you are directly effecting the final outcome.
No one said using compression wouldn't affect the sound, what was said is it doesn't diminish the sound. Compression is used to narrow the difference between your highest volume peaks and your lowest volume desired signal. This does not diminish the sound in fact ultimately it makes everything "Sound" louder. As far as the actual attenuation of the signal well that's made up for by the "make-up gain" or "output gain" which is a part of your compressor.
Seriously, please go back and read the article I posted, there's a lot about compression that you don't understand BigDog. Even if you don't need to understand it as a KJ it would be a great educational opportunity for you. And as far as the name dropping on your Music Store friend, save your breath. I work (i.e. as a monitor tech, stage hand, load crew, etc) with active professional sound engineers with their own impressive client lists in addition to running their own recording studios. So you're not going to impress me with that.
Tony,
It's obvious that Bigdog has only a vague understanding of the basics of sound engineering. My background is with live bands starting way before karaoke came along. While I totally understand the points you are trying to make, they are simply going to continue to go over Bigdog's head. Seems like you can't teach an old Bigdog new tricks.
Personally, for karaoke I simply use the compression feature built into my mixer applied to the final mix. Does the job of protecting my speakers quite well and effortlessly.
It's obvious that Bigdog has only a vague understanding of the basics of sound engineering. My background is with live bands starting way before karaoke came along. While I totally understand the points you are trying to make, they are simply going to continue to go over Bigdog's head. Seems like you can't teach an old Bigdog new tricks.
Personally, for karaoke I simply use the compression feature built into my mixer applied to the final mix. Does the job of protecting my speakers quite well and effortlessly.
