Too Many Singers and What to do with Them.

[Blind Gregory]

No. I'm just getting tired of the KJ BS.

If calling what amounts to "waiting in line" to sing a circle is your only or best way of justifying your alleged "fairness", then fine. So be it.

It's still only a justification and it's still BS.

Actually, it's not BS, it's exactly what it says.

A rotation is just that, something that is cyclical and when a singer is "injected" into that cycle, he/she takes his/her turn in that cycle.

I fail to see what you can possibly see that is unfair in that.

A number of people have put their names forward in front of "YOU" and therefore it is perfectly fair that they should sing before "YOU",

If that were the case, I would have to agree with you. That's not the case I've been discussing.

You might want to re-read my posts.

What I've been talking about since my first post on the subject is when somebody who didn't put his or her name in before me - somebody who just got there - is inserted ahead of me when I'm one of the top five or so singers in the cue.

Tell me how that's fair.

If the rotations is "fair", each person in front of "YOU" will sing ONE song and then it will be "YOUR" turn.

If the people in front of "YOU" have multiple songs up, then "YOU" will get to sing BEFORE their songs "ROTATE" and their second songs come up. Perfectly fair, IMHO. They might think differently, as they put their songs up before "YOU" entered the cycle and might believe they have the right to sing before "YOU".

I'm sorry bud, I fail to see what "YOU" think is unfair about that.

Sandy

[Blind Gregory]

I'll try this one last time.

I do come early whenever I can and I usually stay until the end of the show.

The situation that I brought up was a very specific instance. I'm one of the next singers to perform. Somebody comes in who hasn't been there and puts in a song. Not a friend of the KJ. Somebody none of the regulars knows.

He gets inserted at the top of the rotation.

That's fair?

I don't think so and there no amount of justification that is going to change my opinion about that.

I've had nights where I was in the rotations for the full length of the show and only sang three times. Not a problem. I've also had nights where almost nobody wanted to sing and I got to sing more than a half dozen times. That's fine too.

Either way, I don't complain about how often I get to sing.

In fact, I don't complain to the KJ about the situation that I've been talking about either. But, when we're not singing, we singers do sometimes talk to each other. I'm not the only one who's bothered by the situation that I've been talking about: getting "bumped back" when you've waited patiently and you're finally at the top of the rotation.

To clarify, when I say the top of the rotation, I mean that there's less than a half dozen singers who are going to be singing before.

Any questions?

[Moonrider]

What I've been talking about since my first post on the subject is when somebody who didn't put his or her name in before me - somebody who just got there - is inserted ahead of me when I'm one of the top five or so singers in the cue.

Ah! There I agree with you. My "insertion point" starts behind the 5th singer down from the current singer. As a result it constantly moves, and keeps me from inserting a batch of new singers at any one spot.

I've found that most new singers don't want to get up "too soon." Some regulars that know how I work the rotations will say, "Put me x singers down so I can have time to eat/drink/socialize before I sing."

[Bigdog]

There have been times when I have put someone up right after they cleared the door. Because I am getting ready to start a new rotation. Meaning everyone else in the room has already sang. And they won't be singing again for a long time. Also one of those times it could be you and you will get inserted too. I'm an equal opportunity inserter. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. And they may get inserted right away if I just started the rotation. I do it for everyone not just certain people.

Again this depends on how fast and furiously the singers are coming in.

Don't forget they are singing their first song and you are singing your second song in a few more minutes. I also want to make sure everyone that wants to sing gets to sing at least once. If I know I'm on my last rotation then they may very well get inserted for their one and only song before you sing your last song. Logistics and trying to keep everyone happy. There may be some things that happen that you may not understand, but again I'm trying to accomplish more than meets the eye.

Walk a mile in my shoes first....

The scenarios I outlined in a previous post about the many different singers is stuff I have to deal with each and every night. Do you see or hear about every one of those? No. Trust me they happen all night long, every night. My intention is to be fair to all not unfair.

I will add this...I don't get too many complaints about my rotation.

[wiseguy]

To clarify, when I say the top of the rotation, I mean that there's less than a half dozen singers who are going to be singing before.

The new singers are going to be inserted within half a dozen songs of someone. What makes you so special that you should be exempt.

I will never tell a singer when they will be up unless they are on on deck to sing next. If they ask I will let them know if they have time to smoke but that's it.

You think in terms of what is fair to you and we think in terms of what is fair to everyone.

[Bigdog]

If my rotation size doubles, which it does very often...then there will be a new singer inserted in front of and behind every old singer. That's fair. Skipping someone or anyone of them, isn't fair. I make sure that I don't skip anyone to be fair to the old singers and the new ones. If I don't get you this time I will next time. I start where I left off. That's fair. No exceptions. And it won't matter where you are in the rotation.

I'm not going to pick and choose and say oh he's 2 away from singing. If I need to do an insertion then you will be 3 away from singing.

They are not singing more songs than you. You aren't being skipped.

Telling someone exactly when they will be singing comes back to bite you.

I usually tell them they are about half hour away or at least 15 minutes. Even that gets me in trouble once in a while. Well you told me a half hour a half hour ago. Yes and in the meantime we got 10 more new singers. These singers usually are put at the end of the rotation.

[Sabrina59]

I still have to agree with Gregory on this subject. I do not insert new singers between old singers. New singers go to the back of the rotation, period.

As a singer, I like to know who I am following. As a KJ, I like my singers to know who they are following. It cuts down on the amount of times I am asked how soon until they are up.

I think the big difference here is the size of the rotations. My little show has grown to an average of about 18 singers a night. If I am just starting a new rotation, and someone puts a slip up, even if I put them at the end they don't have long to wait. From the sounds of it, Gregory frequents a small show as well.

If i had 30 or 40 people in the rotation I might consider using the "insertion" method as well. But the way I do it works well for me. I've only had folks inserted in front of me a couple of times, and, I must say, I didn't like it.

[Bigdog]

There could be a misconception among singers that they should always follow the same person all night long.

I have listed several valid reasons for the way I run my rotation. Most of the things I do are because some JERK singer complained about something I was doing that wasn't true. Meaning I wasn't really doing it but that's what I was accused of.

I maintain that I am a fair KJ when it comes to my rotation policies. There are many singers that want to take advantage or try to. Different names on song slips. Crying about having to leave early (to go to another bar.) Using money as a ploy. Intimidation. Threats. Lies.

At any given point in the night probably half the singers there are on or need to be on medication. Sorry, it's true.

If I have 5 singers then new ones go to the back. When you have a 2 hour rotation things need to change to accomplish all I have in mind. Meaning getting everyone up at least once. And that includes playing over on MY time. I NEVER do anything I would consider to be unfair to anyone. And remember this...I'm sober all night long. And I'm not playing favorites. I don't sing more than anyone and neither does my wife/s, girlfriend/s, offspring, parents, bar owner, bar owners friends, or bartender/s.

Keep thinking about the overall plan. It's not just about one person.

[Blind Gregory]

Bigdog... you keep trying to justify yourself and how you run your shows by applying generalities to a specific situation.

You asked me several time whether or not I thought the way you run your shows is fair. I didn't answer before, but I will now. No, I don't. I think you're trying to justify the fact that that you're a petty tyrant who doesn't like the people who sing in your shows, to tell you the truth.

You're right about one thing though. It's not just about one person. It's not just about you.

wiseguy, you amaze me. I've never seen anybody work as hard as you do at not understanding what's going on. Unfortunately, you also bore the hell out of me.

Most likely, neither of your shows is something I'd come back to.

I attend and support big shows with 30-50 singers on a good night and little shows with less than 25 singers most nights because I like the way their KJs run their shows. From what I've seen here, I doubt that I would like the way either of you two run yours.

No big loss for either of you and, certainly, no loss for me. I can find shows to perform at a lot more easily than you can find singers who will go out of the way to help with the popularity of your shows.

Walk a mile in your shoes, Bigdog? Been there. Done that. Not only with karaoke (granted, on a smaller scale than yours), but as a professional emcee working with live professional performers for over a quarter of a century. That's why I said that I understood the KJ point of view.

You keep trying to justify the way you run your shows. Didn't ever occur to you that nobody justifies the things that they do right?

[wiseguy]

I still have to agree with Gregory on this subject. I do not insert new singers between old singers. New singers go to the back of the rotation, period.

As a singer, I like to know who I am following. As a KJ, I like my singers to know who they are following. It cuts down on the amount of times I am asked how soon until they are up.

I think the big difference here is the size of the rotations. My little show has grown to an average of about 18 singers a night. If I am just starting a new rotation, and someone puts a slip up, even if I put them at the end they don't have long to wait. From the sounds of it, Gregory frequents a small show as well.

If i had 30 or 40 people in the rotation I might consider using the "insertion" method as well. But the way I do it works well for me. I've only had folks inserted in front of me a couple of times, and, I must say, I didn't like it.

18 songs, at the four minute per song average, is an hour and twelve minutes.

It's three hours into a four hour show. You have 18 singers, that by this time, have all sang at least twice. Two people come in, order a drink, and turn in song requests. From what you have stated here these singers would not be allowed to sing.

This is not acceptable to me.

[wiseguy]

Gregory, you're the one who is unable to understand and you don't have to work at it. It comes naturally to you. I will no longer waste time on you. I recommend the same to Bigdog.

It is interesting that you are sure to let everyone know that you are blind going as far as making it part of your username. I can only imagine that this is to invoke sympathy. Could it be that you don't think you are getting your due sympathy from the KJ?

[Blind Gregory]

wiseguy, you really don't want to get into this with me.

You provide far too much fodder for insults.

At least my nom de guerre is accurate though. A true "wiseguy" would at least provide a modicum of entertainment value. You haven't yet.

Nor any evidence of wisdom.

Just a lot of wishful thinking on your part, eh?

By the way, what makes you think that any handicapped person regardless of how they may be handicapped, wants sympathy?

[Moonrider]

At least my nom de guerre is accurate though. A true "wiseguy" would at least provide a modicum of entertainment value. You haven't yet.

Nor any evidence of wisdom.

Wiseguy is also another way to reference one of the Mafia rank and file. Enforcer if you will.

[wiseguy]

At least my nom de guerre is accurate though. A true "wiseguy" would at least provide a modicum of entertainment value. You haven't yet.

I'm not here for your entertainment... I'm here to set you straight.

By the way, what makes you think that any handicapped person regardless of how they may be handicapped, wants sympathy?

Usually I don't but you seem to have a need to make certain that everyone knows of your condition. Why is that? How often to you see usernames like "Deaf Jerry" or "Paraplegic Bob"? I never have.

[Bigdog]

Bigdog... you keep trying to justify yourself and how you run your shows by applying generalities to a specific situation.

You asked me several time whether or not I thought the way you run your shows is fair. I didn't answer before, but I will now. No, I don't. I think you're trying to justify the fact that that you're a petty tyrant who doesn't like the people who sing in your shows, to tell you the truth.

You're right about one thing though. It's not just about one person. It's not just about you.

wiseguy, you amaze me. I've never seen anybody work as hard as you do at not understanding what's going on. Unfortunately, you also bore the hell out of me.

Most likely, neither of your shows is something I'd come back to.

I attend and support big shows with 30-50 singers on a good night and little shows with less than 25 singers most nights because I like the way their KJs run their shows. From what I've seen here, I doubt that I would like the way either of you two run yours.

No big loss for either of you and, certainly, no loss for me. I can find shows to perform at a lot more easily than you can find singers who will go out of the way to help with the popularity of your shows.

Walk a mile in your shoes, Bigdog? Been there. Done that. Not only with karaoke (granted, on a smaller scale than yours), but as a professional emcee working with live professional performers for over a quarter of a century. That's why I said that I understood the KJ point of view.

You keep trying to justify the way you run your shows. Didn't ever occur to you that nobody justifies the things that they do right?

I'm trying to let you and every other singer that goes to any karaoke show, that it's not all about one singer. It's about what I'm hired to do by the bar owners. That is to accomodate and keep every person that comes in the bar there and buying.

I'm telling you that my every action is not just because I want to do it that way. It's because from years of experience I found out the best way to maximize the crowd size. My success isn't an accident. Ask my competition. Everything I'm doing is making them look like jerks. And I can't waste my valuable time on one or two cronic complainers when everyone else doesn't have a problem. So that leads me to believe they are the problem or have one. 30 singers and only one constantly complaining, hmmmmmm....must be me. OK

It's about the nonsingers that out number the singers by two to three to four to one. The singers entertain themselves with almost no regard for how the songs they sing or their lack of talent has a BIG effect on the nonsingers. I have more regular loyal nonsingers than singers. That's what fills the bars. 40 singers help.

Being an Emcee requires NO talent. I don't care if your real name is Ed Sullivan. You didn't spend any money to put together a quality sound system. You weren't mixing the sound. You weren't playing an instrument and did you sing too or just do introductions? You didn't have to make up the line up. You didn't do lighting. Here's Johnny....wow

I'm coordinating the entire show. The success of the entire night depends on me. My mixing ability. My financial envestment. My ability to entertain a crowd. I can sing if needed the entire night, without being boring. Doing many different types of music and doing it well. I know over 600 songs. I can show you hunderds of KJs that can't do what I do or even come close. I'm sure you have seen at least one.

Have you ever hear singers that make people leave? I have. It's my job to make them want to stay. Have you ever heard singers that put everyone to sleep? I have and it's my job to wake them up. I'm getting 30-40 singers at my shows because I suck, I don't know what I'm doing and everyone hates me.

No it's because all the other KJs suck and they hate them. Without me it's just an ordinary, crappy, dime a dozen karaoke show. That's my justification.

Most KJs are surprised when they hear a good singer. I surprised when somebody sucks. My sound system attracts singers that are more serious and more talented. I don't get the screaming drunks. If that's a show you want to attend, be my guest. If you want a KJ that plays favorites, have at it. If you want to hear filler music and dance sets, my show won't make you happy. I don't really think anyone's will.