Going to Charlotte, NC
Without approaching the accused the investigator takes pictures and jots down song titles that the accused plays. They note that the accused is using a computer or cavs system. They then send a letter of intent to sue to give time for the accused to ask for an audit of their system or systems. If they ask and passed it all ends there. That is what happened to Frank Tanner. No falsely accused because they had format shifted their library to hard drive. They were let off the hook when they proved they were 1:1. They initially did do a skype audit but because posters, who oppose SC in getting their just due money, said they had gotten off easy, went to the meeting in Charlotte with their three systems and did a full audit.
To anyone that is interested DanG2006 did a very good job of explaining. I did not know of this forum until recently but have posted on the "other BIG 2 " forums From the time we received our intent to sue paperwork. We did undergo a skype audit first...but then choose to take all of our discs to the meeting in NC and have a full audit done by SC and CB as some felt that the skype audit was not good enough. We now have SC and CB certification and are currently waiting for an auditor to come and audit our Stellar products. We do own 3 systems and have them in use. They do have diffrent books as they are not identacle(sp?). I am really looking forward to the KIAA "rebirth" and our KIAA audit so we can show 1-1 status on all labels including the currently orphaned ones. SC/CB and Stellar are attempting to track down and buy the rights to the currently orphaned brands...so that all songs will have to be 1-1. I do not feel victimized by the process....I am grateful that someone is finally doing something to help save our industry....As I tell everyone that will listen...If you are legit ask for a proactive audit...if you are not get legal or get out before you are caught. I will pop in here at least once a week and will be happy to answer any questions.
Proud SC/CB/Stellar cheerleader and Member of the KIAA
Proud SC/CB/Stellar cheerleader and Member of the KIAA
wiseguy I will try and answer your questions as best I can
Do you believe that you were operating illegally before the SC audit?
well yes and no....yes because we believed we were legit because we always stayed 1-1...it was an integrity issue for us...no because our IP attny explained that since we did not have permission to convert the files we were not legal...but this we did not know until after we received the intent to sue paperwork and spoke with the IP attny.
Would you have volunteered for this audit if it weren't for the threats leveled against you by SC?
yes had been better informed(or even known suits were being filed) I would have requested audits in a heartbeat.
Do you believe a person should have to prove they are innocent in order to not be guilty?
no I dont BUT per our IP Attny format shifting without permission is guilt. so it is not quite as black and white as you are asking. SC/CB and Stellar are willing to give the permission in writing to do the format shift if you pass an audit and agree to follow the 1-1 policy in the future.
Do you believe that you were operating illegally before the SC audit?
well yes and no....yes because we believed we were legit because we always stayed 1-1...it was an integrity issue for us...no because our IP attny explained that since we did not have permission to convert the files we were not legal...but this we did not know until after we received the intent to sue paperwork and spoke with the IP attny.
Would you have volunteered for this audit if it weren't for the threats leveled against you by SC?
yes had been better informed(or even known suits were being filed) I would have requested audits in a heartbeat.
Do you believe a person should have to prove they are innocent in order to not be guilty?
no I dont BUT per our IP Attny format shifting without permission is guilt. so it is not quite as black and white as you are asking. SC/CB and Stellar are willing to give the permission in writing to do the format shift if you pass an audit and agree to follow the 1-1 policy in the future.
This is what it all boils down to now isn't it? Where is the case law that shows that you need permission to format shift? Has your IP attorney shown you that this exists? If so, please share this with us. I'm sure you've read what IP Justice has to say on this matter. Are they wrong?kjathena wrote:Do you believe a person should have to prove they are innocent in order to not be guilty?
no I dont BUT per our IP Attny format shifting without permission is guilt. so it is not quite as black and white as you are asking. SC/CB and Stellar are willing to give the permission in writing to do the format shift if you pass an audit and agree to follow the 1-1 policy in the future.
Sorry DanG2006 but did you read something different from what I did?DanG2006 wrote:IP Justice's information has to do with fair use not Commercial use so yes they are wrong.
Quite a large proportion of the IP article cited was to do with "Fair Use" in a Commercial operation as far as I could read and that Fair Use would indeed allow format shifting AS LONG AS THERE WAS A 1 TO 1 CORRELATION BETWEEN OWNED DISCS AND FORMAT SHIFTED FILES.
Sandy.
The professional KJ also falls under fair use. Check out Myth #4 here at IP Justice.DanG2006 wrote:IP Justice's information has to do with fair use not Commercial use so yes they are wrong.
Show me the case law that shows that permission is needed to format shift karaoke song tracks.
Wise Guy,
I am currently awaiting a letter from our IP attny to be able to post on this and other forums why she concluded format shifting was guilt yes she did quote cases and reasoning but has been many months since our meeting and I do not wish to mis-quote what she said. I will be happy tp post it here and on the other forums as well for those that wish not to spend $$'s for a IP Attny...BTW heads up a generic Attny really is lost on these cases as a number of local pirates found out after spending thousands in legal fees. If you wish to seek counsel personally do yourself a favor and find a IP/Copyright Attny...yes they cost more but this is a case where you get what you pay for.
I have read Robin Gross's posts on IP justice and find her opinions very well balanced. BECAUSE the case with CDGs have not been tested in the courts she SHOULD have added when she comes to her conclusions that the analysis and comments are HER OPINION.
PLEASE PAY SPECAIL ATTENTION TO "should be considered" "it seems likley" and "would be found fair use IF the issue were ever litigated"
these are all opinion statements
Making a copy of a Karaoke CDG, whether as a backup, or a change in format to a hard drive, to the extent analyzed under the fair use rubric, SHOULD be considered a fair use. Under the court's ruling in Riaa v. Diamond Multimedia , IT SEEMS LIKLY that personal use or backup copies of electronic media (like CDGs, ebooks, or DVDs) WOULD BE found fair use IF the issue were ever litigated. [7].
She also goes on the differentiate between "fair use" and "professional Use" and explains what would not be covered.
"What Fair Use Would Not Privilege:
1. Copying CDG discs from friends or family and using those unpaid for and copied discs for commercial purposes.
2. Selling or otherwise distributing unlicensed copies of CDG discs.
3. Buying hard drives that contain unlicensed CDG songs (usually for pennies per song, such as have been sold on eBay with 35,000 songs in the range of $400).
4. Downloading MP3+G or other digital format karaoke songs from an Internet site that does not have the right to digitally distribute the songs you purchase.
5. Knowingly performing karaoke songs that are not properly licensed by the copyright owners.
6. Space-shifting (format-shifting / importing) CDG discs onto a hard drive, then using both the original discs and one or more hard drive copies at the same time. A KJ must purchase a full set of CDG discs for each copy on a hard drive."
I am assuming This was written on 2/22/2007 which is well before the lawsuits but it is also exactly in line with what Karaoke Producers are saying. So, the KJ hosting community has had almost four years to “get the word” and have refused to accept what they need to do. If you post these links, you might point out that the site offers BALANCED VIEWS, yet even four years ago, it is clear that she is in full support of the positions of the Karaoke Producers.
It would be wonderful to be able to reach Ms, Robin Gross and see if any of her opinions have changed or been expanded upon since the filing of the suits. I wonder if anyone knows how to reach her?
The manus are willing to give written permission for the conversion and professional use if a KJ passes and audit and agrees to remain 1-1
I am currently awaiting a letter from our IP attny to be able to post on this and other forums why she concluded format shifting was guilt yes she did quote cases and reasoning but has been many months since our meeting and I do not wish to mis-quote what she said. I will be happy tp post it here and on the other forums as well for those that wish not to spend $$'s for a IP Attny...BTW heads up a generic Attny really is lost on these cases as a number of local pirates found out after spending thousands in legal fees. If you wish to seek counsel personally do yourself a favor and find a IP/Copyright Attny...yes they cost more but this is a case where you get what you pay for.
I have read Robin Gross's posts on IP justice and find her opinions very well balanced. BECAUSE the case with CDGs have not been tested in the courts she SHOULD have added when she comes to her conclusions that the analysis and comments are HER OPINION.
PLEASE PAY SPECAIL ATTENTION TO "should be considered" "it seems likley" and "would be found fair use IF the issue were ever litigated"
these are all opinion statements
Making a copy of a Karaoke CDG, whether as a backup, or a change in format to a hard drive, to the extent analyzed under the fair use rubric, SHOULD be considered a fair use. Under the court's ruling in Riaa v. Diamond Multimedia , IT SEEMS LIKLY that personal use or backup copies of electronic media (like CDGs, ebooks, or DVDs) WOULD BE found fair use IF the issue were ever litigated. [7].
She also goes on the differentiate between "fair use" and "professional Use" and explains what would not be covered.
"What Fair Use Would Not Privilege:
1. Copying CDG discs from friends or family and using those unpaid for and copied discs for commercial purposes.
2. Selling or otherwise distributing unlicensed copies of CDG discs.
3. Buying hard drives that contain unlicensed CDG songs (usually for pennies per song, such as have been sold on eBay with 35,000 songs in the range of $400).
4. Downloading MP3+G or other digital format karaoke songs from an Internet site that does not have the right to digitally distribute the songs you purchase.
5. Knowingly performing karaoke songs that are not properly licensed by the copyright owners.
6. Space-shifting (format-shifting / importing) CDG discs onto a hard drive, then using both the original discs and one or more hard drive copies at the same time. A KJ must purchase a full set of CDG discs for each copy on a hard drive."
I am assuming This was written on 2/22/2007 which is well before the lawsuits but it is also exactly in line with what Karaoke Producers are saying. So, the KJ hosting community has had almost four years to “get the word” and have refused to accept what they need to do. If you post these links, you might point out that the site offers BALANCED VIEWS, yet even four years ago, it is clear that she is in full support of the positions of the Karaoke Producers.
It would be wonderful to be able to reach Ms, Robin Gross and see if any of her opinions have changed or been expanded upon since the filing of the suits. I wonder if anyone knows how to reach her?
The manus are willing to give written permission for the conversion and professional use if a KJ passes and audit and agrees to remain 1-1
This sword cuts both ways. Because the case with CDGs have not been tested in the courts how can SC say "as a matter of fact" that format shifting is illegal. This is just THEIR opinion.I have read Robin Gross's posts on IP justice and find her opinions very well balanced. BECAUSE the case with CDGs have not been tested in the courts she SHOULD have added when she comes to her conclusions that the analysis and comments are HER OPINION.
I have no argument with these six points. But nothing here is saying that it is illegal to format shift. And that is the sole allegation that SC uses to threaten anyone who hosts their shows from a hard drive with no evidence whatsoever that they are not 1:1 compliant. This is pure BS. This must not be tolerated."What Fair Use Would Not Privilege:
1. Copying CDG discs from friends or family and using those unpaid for and copied discs for commercial purposes.
2. Selling or otherwise distributing unlicensed copies of CDG discs.
3. Buying hard drives that contain unlicensed CDG songs (usually for pennies per song, such as have been sold on eBay with 35,000 songs in the range of $400).
4. Downloading MP3+G or other digital format karaoke songs from an Internet site that does not have the right to digitally distribute the songs you purchase.
5. Knowingly performing karaoke songs that are not properly licensed by the copyright owners.
6. Space-shifting (format-shifting / importing) CDG discs onto a hard drive, then using both the original discs and one or more hard drive copies at the same time. A KJ must purchase a full set of CDG discs for each copy on a hard drive."
I am assuming This was written on 2/22/2007 which is well before the lawsuits but it is also exactly in line with what Karaoke Producers are saying.
While I'm waiting for kjathena to get back to us with this information I would like to make a few things clear.kjathena wrote:I am currently awaiting a letter from our IP attny to be able to post on this and other forums why she concluded format shifting was guilt yes she did quote cases and reasoning but has been many months since our meeting and I do not wish to mis-quote what she said.
I do not want anyone to get the impression that I am pro-piracy or anti Sound Choice. Neither is true. Piracy affects me just like it does all the rest of the professional KJs. I am also sympathetic to the plight of Sound Choice and other karaoke music manufacturers. It is an uphill battle to be sure.
I actually believe that the audit concept has merit as long as it is VOLUNTARY. Forcing people into agreeing to the audit with unfounded allegations is simply wrong. Bullying in any form just pisses me off.
I get the impression now that the Sound Choice audit and lawsuits are not about format shifting.
They are simply saying using their logo on a hard drive without proof of ownership is their issue.
This stays clear of the format shifting issue. So the lawsuits really don't address format shifting.
So by doing the audit you are cleared to use their logo on a computer and that's all they can legally say about it.
Which still doesn't answer the legality of the format shift to a hard drive from a CD+G disc. And they aren't even going to address the issue.
It's not their issue and I still say they can not grant you permission to format shift.
They are just saying we want you to be one to one and where you are 1-1 doesn't matter.
As far as piracy...it has hurt the industry. It has hurt the quality of karaoke shows. It has hurt the pay grade by keeping it low. It has hurt the manufacturers.
Format shifting did not cause these issues. It has brought up the quality of the shows.
They are simply saying using their logo on a hard drive without proof of ownership is their issue.
This stays clear of the format shifting issue. So the lawsuits really don't address format shifting.
So by doing the audit you are cleared to use their logo on a computer and that's all they can legally say about it.
Which still doesn't answer the legality of the format shift to a hard drive from a CD+G disc. And they aren't even going to address the issue.
It's not their issue and I still say they can not grant you permission to format shift.
They are just saying we want you to be one to one and where you are 1-1 doesn't matter.
As far as piracy...it has hurt the industry. It has hurt the quality of karaoke shows. It has hurt the pay grade by keeping it low. It has hurt the manufacturers.
Format shifting did not cause these issues. It has brought up the quality of the shows.
