Thank you Dan,
What you have suggested is best for you, in light of the circumstances you have described, makes perfect sense to me. And under said circumstances I would conduct myself as you do. I've frequented many a biker bar myself.
Do you remove songs from your songbooks?
Also if I were to eliminate songs I don't want sung, I would have stayed with my original set of discs and stayed a laserKaroke company as then I was trying to distance myself from all the other companies that had the standards which I had gotten sick of, but that would put me out of business too.
I like many others are getting sick of Paradise By The Dashboard Lights being sung every night.
I like many others are getting sick of Paradise By The Dashboard Lights being sung every night.
Dan,
How would you conduct your business if you did a regular gig at a venue that is not rowdy?
Let's say at a venue that has a bar and a decent menu so people come to eat as well as drink; Let's say it has a mix of clientele 30-60 years of age. Let's say that some people like pop, some country, some rock, some oldies, some standards, some hip-hop. Let's say couples, some married, make up 35% of the clientele. Let's say that 50% of those in attendance came to sing or accompanied a singer.
Would you ask the owner of the place how much leeway would be allowed for "off-color" songs or would you take it upon yourself to decide that question? If the decision were yours to make, how much censoring, if any, would you do?
How would you conduct your business if you did a regular gig at a venue that is not rowdy?
Let's say at a venue that has a bar and a decent menu so people come to eat as well as drink; Let's say it has a mix of clientele 30-60 years of age. Let's say that some people like pop, some country, some rock, some oldies, some standards, some hip-hop. Let's say couples, some married, make up 35% of the clientele. Let's say that 50% of those in attendance came to sing or accompanied a singer.
Would you ask the owner of the place how much leeway would be allowed for "off-color" songs or would you take it upon yourself to decide that question? If the decision were yours to make, how much censoring, if any, would you do?
It all comes down to how much respect you have for yourself and your business. 99% of that businesss is your nightly crowd. Singers and non singers.
Public swearing is not the norm in any city I have heard of.
Aiding and abetting the 21ers to act unruly and insulting in public is not normal.
You have kids?? Nice role model. Is that how you want them to act out in public. Do you let them practice those songs at home so they will be ready for the real world????? Wouldn't want them to suck in public. They will have to be able to perform them flawlessly to get the full "insulting" effect.
Any KJ that thinks they are doing mankind a great service by allowing the swearing, vulgar songs and anything goes, is wrong. There is no social value to it. It's not funny...It's not helping your business.
Are you suggesting that your business would fail if you didn't edit your book???
Helping people to be vulgar and insulting in public may be the norm in Loserville....... but it isn't in Middle class and above.
Public swearing is not the norm in any city I have heard of.
Aiding and abetting the 21ers to act unruly and insulting in public is not normal.
You have kids?? Nice role model. Is that how you want them to act out in public. Do you let them practice those songs at home so they will be ready for the real world????? Wouldn't want them to suck in public. They will have to be able to perform them flawlessly to get the full "insulting" effect.
Any KJ that thinks they are doing mankind a great service by allowing the swearing, vulgar songs and anything goes, is wrong. There is no social value to it. It's not funny...It's not helping your business.
Are you suggesting that your business would fail if you didn't edit your book???
Helping people to be vulgar and insulting in public may be the norm in Loserville....... but it isn't in Middle class and above.
Let's put some things into perspective.
Do your "middle class and above" customers go to see R rated movies?
Of course they do and their are plenty of statistics to prove it.
What type of language is used in most R rated movies?
The exact kind of language you consider to be vulgar.
Are the theaters ruining their reputation because they play the R rated movies?
Of course not.
Are R rated movies a form of entertainment for adults?
Yes they are.
So these "classy" people that come to your karaoke shows have no problem paying good money to go watch and listen to their favorite actors curse up a storm on the movie screen but would somehow be offended by an occasional karaoke song that contains a few swear words. I don't think so. This is simply you enforcing your own sense of morality on your customers.
Do your "middle class and above" customers go to see R rated movies?
Of course they do and their are plenty of statistics to prove it.
What type of language is used in most R rated movies?
The exact kind of language you consider to be vulgar.
Are the theaters ruining their reputation because they play the R rated movies?
Of course not.
Are R rated movies a form of entertainment for adults?
Yes they are.
So these "classy" people that come to your karaoke shows have no problem paying good money to go watch and listen to their favorite actors curse up a storm on the movie screen but would somehow be offended by an occasional karaoke song that contains a few swear words. I don't think so. This is simply you enforcing your own sense of morality on your customers.
wiseguy
Excellent points. I had given much thought to those situations before I opened my big mouth. Here's what I concluded:
a) Because THERE IS a (recently changed, again) movie rating system, people who would be offended know when not to go. And the new system will make it even clearer why the rating has been awarded (sex, violence language). meanwhile THERE IS NO RATING SYSTEM FOR ESTABLISHMENTS THAT OFFER KARAOKE
b) Now, I maybe wrong in the following (and I exclude X-rated movies which I don't attend), I cannot recall attending a movie where the f-word is used to describe a sex act. I'm accustomed to it being used as "F you", "Oh, F", "F'ing Right" etc. And I don't recall seeing a movie in which the dialog graphically/extensively discusses a sexual liason. There are, however, karaoke versions of songs that do just that!
c) This point is purely subjective. When an actor or comedian throws out a gratuitous profanity, at times I would say it was a "raw" experience for me. Singing, which can be so passionate, leaves me with much deeper reaction. When someone describes (intimate) sexual acts, my hair, at times, has literally stood up on the back of my neck. I have to believe, furthermore, that most people have a stronger response (positive or negative) to a movie portraying a sexual act than they do to a picture of the same sexual act. And maybe, it's those who like to see others having sex in the movies who like to hear songs about it? I'd prefer to avoid both! But my main point is that both the artistic vehicle and the context have a bearing on how people react.
d) When I choose to see or avoid a movie, it will be the same movie no matter where it plays. But when I attend a karaoke show, I don't know what to expect. I once again attended the Thursday night Karaoke (bar) show where kids attend! My objective in adding this fact is that the discription used by some herein of what a karaoke venue is like is nothing more than a stereotype that is often far afield from the variety of venues that actually exist! So, in fact, I don't know what to expect when I go to a new venue that offers karaoke. And I prefer not to find out after arriving that I "have to suck it up"
As to first ammendment rights, let me say this. In the 1970's I was a vice-president at the most controversial "men's" magazine ever published. I am proud of my relationship with that organization and I am far from a prude. I know all about the controversies surrounding censorship. I would like to think that the only reason some people differ with my opinion, herein, regarding civility is because they have never done a karaoke show at other than a biker bar and cannot, therefore relate to venue such as the one I asked Dan about in my previous post?
Excellent points. I had given much thought to those situations before I opened my big mouth. Here's what I concluded:
a) Because THERE IS a (recently changed, again) movie rating system, people who would be offended know when not to go. And the new system will make it even clearer why the rating has been awarded (sex, violence language). meanwhile THERE IS NO RATING SYSTEM FOR ESTABLISHMENTS THAT OFFER KARAOKE
b) Now, I maybe wrong in the following (and I exclude X-rated movies which I don't attend), I cannot recall attending a movie where the f-word is used to describe a sex act. I'm accustomed to it being used as "F you", "Oh, F", "F'ing Right" etc. And I don't recall seeing a movie in which the dialog graphically/extensively discusses a sexual liason. There are, however, karaoke versions of songs that do just that!
c) This point is purely subjective. When an actor or comedian throws out a gratuitous profanity, at times I would say it was a "raw" experience for me. Singing, which can be so passionate, leaves me with much deeper reaction. When someone describes (intimate) sexual acts, my hair, at times, has literally stood up on the back of my neck. I have to believe, furthermore, that most people have a stronger response (positive or negative) to a movie portraying a sexual act than they do to a picture of the same sexual act. And maybe, it's those who like to see others having sex in the movies who like to hear songs about it? I'd prefer to avoid both! But my main point is that both the artistic vehicle and the context have a bearing on how people react.
d) When I choose to see or avoid a movie, it will be the same movie no matter where it plays. But when I attend a karaoke show, I don't know what to expect. I once again attended the Thursday night Karaoke (bar) show where kids attend! My objective in adding this fact is that the discription used by some herein of what a karaoke venue is like is nothing more than a stereotype that is often far afield from the variety of venues that actually exist! So, in fact, I don't know what to expect when I go to a new venue that offers karaoke. And I prefer not to find out after arriving that I "have to suck it up"
As to first ammendment rights, let me say this. In the 1970's I was a vice-president at the most controversial "men's" magazine ever published. I am proud of my relationship with that organization and I am far from a prude. I know all about the controversies surrounding censorship. I would like to think that the only reason some people differ with my opinion, herein, regarding civility is because they have never done a karaoke show at other than a biker bar and cannot, therefore relate to venue such as the one I asked Dan about in my previous post?
This will be my last post in this thread. I will wait a few days for anyone to make one last post and then this thread will be locked. It's obvious that nothing is going to be resolved here. I do want to thank all of you who participated in this discussion. You are all quite intelligent people who express your positions very well.
I personally do not remove any songs from my song books other than to eliminate duplicates. I do not believe in censorship among consenting adults. The places I perform at do not allow anyone under the age of 21 to enter. Anyone who enters an adult only bar should not expect to find the same type of language that would be found in their church group.
This being said, I may perform many consecutive shows without a single request for songs like The Rodeo Song, Ode To My Car, or one of the explicit rap songs. Very rarely will more than one or two of these songs be requested in one night. The way I see it is, if you are not stable enough to be able to withstand a few off color words and expressions in an adult setting, then you looking for fun in all the wrong places.
I personally do not remove any songs from my song books other than to eliminate duplicates. I do not believe in censorship among consenting adults. The places I perform at do not allow anyone under the age of 21 to enter. Anyone who enters an adult only bar should not expect to find the same type of language that would be found in their church group.
This being said, I may perform many consecutive shows without a single request for songs like The Rodeo Song, Ode To My Car, or one of the explicit rap songs. Very rarely will more than one or two of these songs be requested in one night. The way I see it is, if you are not stable enough to be able to withstand a few off color words and expressions in an adult setting, then you looking for fun in all the wrong places.
Why should anyone be expecting to hear swearing at a bar???? Why????
There are many high class bar/restuarants in the counrty that would not tolerate swearing. Dress codes are also inforced at many locations. If they have dress codes there is also an expected behavior that comes with it. And it isn't acting like a jerk.
Seems to me that you expect everyone to act like a jerk and everything that goes with it and if they don't, you think they aren't having fun. You are a failure as a KJ, if the lunacy level isn't bouncing off the walls??
Normal behavior is still in fashion in public for the majority.
You are describing a minority. Since when does the majority answer to the minority.
As was pointed out,....people have a choice to attend a movie or not by the posted rating.
Bars are not posted. Your show should be.
Then you would see if people want to subject themselves to whatever you may be allowing to take place. They could elect to take their money to a venue with more class. One that respects people and doesn't subject them to overt sexual stuff, racial insults and swearing like drunk sailors on shore leave.
Still to be answered is the social value that this adds to your business??
Will your business fail if you edit your book????
Appearently it will.
There are many high class bar/restuarants in the counrty that would not tolerate swearing. Dress codes are also inforced at many locations. If they have dress codes there is also an expected behavior that comes with it. And it isn't acting like a jerk.
Seems to me that you expect everyone to act like a jerk and everything that goes with it and if they don't, you think they aren't having fun. You are a failure as a KJ, if the lunacy level isn't bouncing off the walls??
Normal behavior is still in fashion in public for the majority.
You are describing a minority. Since when does the majority answer to the minority.
As was pointed out,....people have a choice to attend a movie or not by the posted rating.
Bars are not posted. Your show should be.
Then you would see if people want to subject themselves to whatever you may be allowing to take place. They could elect to take their money to a venue with more class. One that respects people and doesn't subject them to overt sexual stuff, racial insults and swearing like drunk sailors on shore leave.
Still to be answered is the social value that this adds to your business??
Will your business fail if you edit your book????
Appearently it will.
MARLENA'S RESPONSE TO MY FIRST POSTING IN THIS THREAD WITH WHICH WISEGUY CONCURRED:
I can accept that the places they do their shows have clienteles of 21 or older, only.
I just don't understand, HOWEVER, why they think every bar is the same, that every group of customers is the same and that EVERYONE delights in the antics of a few who don't know how to behave civilly?
In closing. It is not only a curiousity to Big Dog, but to me as well, how a venue, the Karaoke show and the customers benefit from a lack of civility, even in a raunchy place? There are 10's of thousands of songs to choose from that are not raunchy.
EDITED @ 3PM
PER WISEGUY
I can accept that neither Marlena or Wiseguy has every done a gig at a classy bar or at a restaurantBars were created for the drunken sailor or the average rig hand. Somewhere originally to get away from the acceptable public norm. Heaven forbid even a place to get away from the wife. NOW although the bar industry has changed immensely since the days of NO WOMEN ALLOWED. I DOn't think that the bar scene should become the acceptable Public norm.
I can accept that the places they do their shows have clienteles of 21 or older, only.
I just don't understand, HOWEVER, why they think every bar is the same, that every group of customers is the same and that EVERYONE delights in the antics of a few who don't know how to behave civilly?
In closing. It is not only a curiousity to Big Dog, but to me as well, how a venue, the Karaoke show and the customers benefit from a lack of civility, even in a raunchy place? There are 10's of thousands of songs to choose from that are not raunchy.
EDITED @ 3PM
PER WISEGUY
The previous represents my sentiments exactly. And please note that I have never been asked for MY CONSENT regarding the vulgar songs performed at some shows!I do not believe in censorship among consenting adults.
Well as I see Wiseguy is about to close this thread, and I was a participant at one point, I guess I should add my closing remarks as well.
I don't remove songs from my book for any reason, if a guest wants to sing them, my responsibility as a KJ is to provide that service, that's why I was hired. I do respect the guests at our shows, so much so that I don't pretend to be the parent or moral concience of grown adults. $50,000/year country clubs, bars, clubs, dance halls, all get the same treatment when it's an adults only event and not once have we had a problem.
What does it add to my show? Every song is written by an artist to express their feelings, views and opinions. People identify with those feelings and views and often times the songs they like best are the ones they identify with the most. The most basic job of a KJ is to provide the equipment and back tracks necessary for a singer to sing the songs they enjoy. That's why we tell our peers here that song quantity and variety is paramount. So what social value added by those songs is no different than that added by any other. It expresses a view, feeling or opinion that people enjoy and identify with (yes even a song like ode to my car, who can't identify with that?) and enjoy. We could sit here for days and debate the social values of songs and I can show you songs with no "curse" words that are worse than some of the songs deemed vulgar here. That is exactly why I'm not willing to impose my own arbitrary standards upon my guests, because each of their standards and views of what is vulgar, insuting or offensive is quite different from mine. Songs that I'm sure are favorites at many shows would be removed from my show if I removed the songs I find offensive or vulgar.
Again, it is out of respect for my guests that we DO NOT play morality enforcer. If the club is a higher class establishment with rules and expectations for conduct, is it not the responsibility of the guests to act in such a manner? It is NOT my job as a KJ to babysit for them and make sure they don't get tossed from their country club for acting the fool. No where in my contracts does it ever express that I am to ensure the proper behavior of the singing guests (in fact quite the opposite, every standard KJ and DJ contract I've ever seen states it is the client, the one that hired the KJ, who is responsible for ensuring acceptable conduct). If I'm going to be hired to control people's behavior, the hazard pay alone would be MUCH higher.
As I've said before, we each have our own way of running our shows and we do what works best for us. What might get us a long term contract at one venu would be exactly what would get us booted from another. Bigdog, you'd never make it long at one of our venues with the type of show you do, the guests would hate you. From what you've described, the same could be said of us if we played at one of your venues. So in that regard, I'll say this. We've discussed some very useful topics in this thread and while I agree it has run its course I think it was a very beneficial discussion. I wish each of you the greatest level of success and thank you all for expressing your opinions and insights for the rest of us to see.
I don't remove songs from my book for any reason, if a guest wants to sing them, my responsibility as a KJ is to provide that service, that's why I was hired. I do respect the guests at our shows, so much so that I don't pretend to be the parent or moral concience of grown adults. $50,000/year country clubs, bars, clubs, dance halls, all get the same treatment when it's an adults only event and not once have we had a problem.
What does it add to my show? Every song is written by an artist to express their feelings, views and opinions. People identify with those feelings and views and often times the songs they like best are the ones they identify with the most. The most basic job of a KJ is to provide the equipment and back tracks necessary for a singer to sing the songs they enjoy. That's why we tell our peers here that song quantity and variety is paramount. So what social value added by those songs is no different than that added by any other. It expresses a view, feeling or opinion that people enjoy and identify with (yes even a song like ode to my car, who can't identify with that?) and enjoy. We could sit here for days and debate the social values of songs and I can show you songs with no "curse" words that are worse than some of the songs deemed vulgar here. That is exactly why I'm not willing to impose my own arbitrary standards upon my guests, because each of their standards and views of what is vulgar, insuting or offensive is quite different from mine. Songs that I'm sure are favorites at many shows would be removed from my show if I removed the songs I find offensive or vulgar.
Again, it is out of respect for my guests that we DO NOT play morality enforcer. If the club is a higher class establishment with rules and expectations for conduct, is it not the responsibility of the guests to act in such a manner? It is NOT my job as a KJ to babysit for them and make sure they don't get tossed from their country club for acting the fool. No where in my contracts does it ever express that I am to ensure the proper behavior of the singing guests (in fact quite the opposite, every standard KJ and DJ contract I've ever seen states it is the client, the one that hired the KJ, who is responsible for ensuring acceptable conduct). If I'm going to be hired to control people's behavior, the hazard pay alone would be MUCH higher.
As I've said before, we each have our own way of running our shows and we do what works best for us. What might get us a long term contract at one venu would be exactly what would get us booted from another. Bigdog, you'd never make it long at one of our venues with the type of show you do, the guests would hate you. From what you've described, the same could be said of us if we played at one of your venues. So in that regard, I'll say this. We've discussed some very useful topics in this thread and while I agree it has run its course I think it was a very beneficial discussion. I wish each of you the greatest level of success and thank you all for expressing your opinions and insights for the rest of us to see.
"b) Now, I maybe wrong in the following (and I exclude X-rated movies which I don't attend), I cannot recall attending a movie where the f-word is used to describe a sex act. I'm accustomed to it being used as "F you", "Oh, F", "F'ing Right" etc. And I don't recall seeing a movie in which the dialog graphically/extensively discusses a sexual liason. There are, however, karaoke versions of songs that do just that!
"
Cruel Intentions - Sarah Michelle Gellar
Just cause - Sean connery
Fear - Mark Walberg & Reese Witherspoon
just to drop a few for you.
"I can accept that neither Marlena or Wiseguy has every done a gig at a classy bar or at a restaurant "
1) Officer's Mess On Base (officer's Being the key word)
2) Maple Flag (it's like the the real "top gun" of the world)
Both Events I have worked over and over for 4 years now. They Last about 16 Weeks
Also I have worked nightclubs, Lounges and Charity Events. Family reunions and Private parties with children as well.
I have worked the "stuffy" bar as well. Or for a few of you the "upper" class people, and they are 10 times worse than the "average joe"
With that said, I find it unfortunate that the views expressed in this thread sometimes became too personal. remember that I don't know you and you don't know me.
I work 8 hours a week and make $600.00 a week. My business is Still booming and New clients pop up everyday. The crowd I had 4 years ago has changed, The older clients have stopped singing karaoke for their health, and i now have the new 18+ crowd frequenting my shows, as well as anyone up to 60 years old still. I am still the most requested KJ out of 7 in my area and I have the biggest name for being the best. My shows consist of every type of music you can think of and even 1 or 2 off color songs a night. But as a seasoned KJ I can handle those songs with class so people don't get offended. Although I allow a song such as "Ode To My Car" does not mean that my show is wild and anything goes, I pride myself on the lack of cursing and free for all attitude.
Although you can say I lose clients because I allow these songs, I can tell you i have lost far more clients because i Don't allow rowdiness or added profanity in songs. I Don't allow any mic time before or after any song (i hold main volume control on my amp). If someone is told once it's a warning, second time they are cut off from singing. If they feel the need to add comments during the "instrumental Breaks" then I also will shut off the volume during those.
So Although this thread started out as a simple question I feel it has gone to far. Although some made very good points, I feel some came of very badly.
THank you for your input and your opinions.
Marlena
"
Cruel Intentions - Sarah Michelle Gellar
Just cause - Sean connery
Fear - Mark Walberg & Reese Witherspoon
just to drop a few for you.
"I can accept that neither Marlena or Wiseguy has every done a gig at a classy bar or at a restaurant "
1) Officer's Mess On Base (officer's Being the key word)
2) Maple Flag (it's like the the real "top gun" of the world)
Both Events I have worked over and over for 4 years now. They Last about 16 Weeks
Also I have worked nightclubs, Lounges and Charity Events. Family reunions and Private parties with children as well.
I have worked the "stuffy" bar as well. Or for a few of you the "upper" class people, and they are 10 times worse than the "average joe"
With that said, I find it unfortunate that the views expressed in this thread sometimes became too personal. remember that I don't know you and you don't know me.
I work 8 hours a week and make $600.00 a week. My business is Still booming and New clients pop up everyday. The crowd I had 4 years ago has changed, The older clients have stopped singing karaoke for their health, and i now have the new 18+ crowd frequenting my shows, as well as anyone up to 60 years old still. I am still the most requested KJ out of 7 in my area and I have the biggest name for being the best. My shows consist of every type of music you can think of and even 1 or 2 off color songs a night. But as a seasoned KJ I can handle those songs with class so people don't get offended. Although I allow a song such as "Ode To My Car" does not mean that my show is wild and anything goes, I pride myself on the lack of cursing and free for all attitude.
Although you can say I lose clients because I allow these songs, I can tell you i have lost far more clients because i Don't allow rowdiness or added profanity in songs. I Don't allow any mic time before or after any song (i hold main volume control on my amp). If someone is told once it's a warning, second time they are cut off from singing. If they feel the need to add comments during the "instrumental Breaks" then I also will shut off the volume during those.
So Although this thread started out as a simple question I feel it has gone to far. Although some made very good points, I feel some came of very badly.
THank you for your input and your opinions.
Marlena
