Image

Karaoke Equalizer

Your comments, questions, or opinions on any karaoke related hardware.
Post Reply
keoni2400
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: Southern California

Karaoke Equalizer

Post by keoni2400 »

I'm looking for a typical karaoke curve for a graphical equalizer. My guess is the curve should favor the vocal range, at least that's what my experiments indicate using the graphical equalizer in iTunes. I understand a professional graphical equalizer using slide potentiometers provides control over smaller frequency bands than the one provided by iTunes and, therefore, allows for a smoother curve. Any inforamation about how to manage a professional, slide-potentiometer equalizer for karaoke purposes will be appreciated.


Bigdog
Posts: 2937
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:15 am

Post by Bigdog »

To answer that question....is not easy. There is no setting to give you.

Every different piece of equipment you have in the sound chain, changes the EQ settings. There is no magic karaoke setting. No karaoke "SMILE" configuration.

It will depend on your ear and how you want your system to sound with the equipment you have.

It depends on the speakers you use. Do you use subs? How big the tops and horns are. The players or computer you use. That amplifier and how many actual frequencies it faithfully reproduces. The mixer. The microphones.


I arrived at my eq settings through listening to hundreds of songs from different manufacturers and different styles of music and making minute changes. Every time I changed a piece of equipment some settings changed slightly. It's all in your ear.

Anyone that tells you there is a magic karaoke setting is goofy, stupid or lying.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it.. :lol:
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
keoni2400
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: Southern California

Post by keoni2400 »

Gotcha, but is there a starting curve that can be tweeked to accommodate all the issues you stated?
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
Moonrider
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 7:02 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Post by Moonrider »

keoni2400 wrote:Gotcha, but is there a starting curve that can be tweeked to accommodate all the issues you stated?
Short answer: No.

Longer Over-simplified Answer: Each and every room you set up in is unique in it's arrangement - chairs, walls, other furnishings - all of which will effect how sound reflects around the room. This in turn will introduce "nodes" in the room where different frequencies are enhanced or attenuated. The "nodes" in and around the singer's area will affect how easily the mike feeds back. "Nodes" in the audience will affect how the audience hears the sound.

On top of that, the room you're in can change depending on how many people are there, and if stuff gets rearranged during the night.

Links to gobs of information on EQ basics and the physics of sound:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/tag/audio+basics

http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/ta ... techniques

http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles5.htm

http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles6.htm
Last week, I went to Philadelphia, but it was closed.
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
mnementh
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:41 am
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Post by mnementh »

From a purely electronics point of view and I should mention that I work in electronics and have been an electronics hobbyist for over 30 years, you would need to set up each venue, on an individual basis.

Thai has already been mentioned in the posts above and is absolutely correct.

Theoretically, you would need to set your equalizer to flat depending on your venue acoustics.

If you were really serious (and didn't mind the strange looks :lol: 8) ) you would need an omnidirectional microphone, a Pink Noise generator and an audio spectrum analyser (big bucks item, BTW :mrgreen: ).

Place the mike in the center of your venue and play the Pink Noise through your system.

Set your equalizer so that the spuctrum analyser display is flat.

Now you have a neutral set up.

From there, your choices are monumental.

Most singers like a bit of reverb (singing in the bath syndrome)

A little bit of bass boost will help most appear not to be too "screechy"

Then, as Bigdog and others will agree (I hope), you just have to make minor adjustments, as required for the individual.

Oh! I should point out that the initial neutral set up needs to be done while your audience is in place, so that the acoustics are accurate.

Hence the funny looks you'll be getting. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Sandy
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
keoni2400
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: Southern California

Post by keoni2400 »

Thanks, Moonrider and Mnementh for your information. I should have mentioned I'm only dealing with one, permanent (except for adjusting) karaoke-system installation. Also, the KJs never touch the equalizer, which means there's no on-the-spot adjustments for number of bodies, etc. Based on the information you provided, Mnementh, that kind of equalizer adjusting probably never will be done in the venue in question. I'd hoped a simple, empirical solution was possible for a low-budget situation, which, paradoxically, has fairly expensive and sophisticated equipment. The problem is no one knows how to adjust the system properly, yielding poor sound and loss of many patrons. Oh, well... :(
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
Bigdog
Posts: 2937
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:15 am

Post by Bigdog »

I started my setting from listening to the system set up and listening to hundreds of songs. The settings I use are from making minor adjustments during each song. After a while, a pattern appeared in the settings. So basically my settings are an average of those settings.

This is where I'm going to start a big controversy. :sorry:

My average settings do not change from room to room. Since doing my initial EQ set up and making adjustments early on at each room, I still ended up with average settings. So I never adjust anything but the volume and reverb settings during any show. I call it set-it-and-forget-it.

99% of the music sounds very acceptable. There are occasional songs that may be heavy on the bass or high end tinny. This is due to the settings that different disc manufacturers used in their recording. But it's not often enough to go crazy over. It's 3 minutes...get over it.

Different sized speakers produce different sounds.

It also depends on the sound you want to hear. I like a little heavy on the bass. But I also want to hear the mids and the highs. It's all part of music. Not just some frequencies. I want them all reproduced so they can be heard.

If you looked at my EQ ..most are set above middle somehwere. Except the 2 lowest bass frequencies> they are totally off. I had a sound mixer for some major rock bands that frequents one of my shows. He gave me some tips and made some adjustments according to what he heard.

There are also frequencies that cause more microphone feedback than others. So they need to be pulled back some.

Listen to and sing hundreds of songs on your system and start adjusting to what the average is that you want to hear.

I had an employee that was a long time DJ. He wanted to "mix" every song. :evil: By the time the night was over the system sounded so bad I had to fix it everytime he had it. The song would be half over before he was done messin'. It was getting to the point of seriously considering putting a piece of plexiglass over everything but the volume sliders.

I do it and I told all the employees...JUST move the volume and reverb....that's it. The system always sounds great. Much better han the competitions.

But MY settings are for my system and the way I want to hear it. Everyone elses settings will be for their system and they way they want to hear it. Yours will be the way you want to hear your system.

I'm very picky about the sound and using my "average setting" method may not sound like it...but you would have to hear the system to make the final judgement. My system always sounds the same....only the rooms change...not the EQ. :lol:

It's like each singer sounds different...but 99% of the time to make them sound as good as possible means adjusting ONLY the volume/gain and the reverb. NOT THE EQ.

I haven't touched my 31 band eq in years. Just the channel EQ and that's very rare. I never touch it when I sing so, it's good enough for everyone else.
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
keoni2400
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: Southern California

Post by keoni2400 »

Wel, Bigdog, you and I seem to be on the same frequency. However, one of your statements left this novice confused. You wrote:

"I haven't touched my 31 band eq in years. Just the channel EQ and that's very rare. I never touch it when I sing so, it's good enough for everyone else."

I know what a 31-band equalizer is, but 'splain a "channel EQ" to me. What channel or chanels are you talking about, and how many bands in that equalizer? On my home-computer system, I run, in addition to other programs, Winamp and iTunes, each of which has a software, graphic equalizer. So, I'm guessing your 31-band equalizer is roughly equivalent to the equalizers in Winamp and iTunes. My further guess is the bass and treble controls on my computer's speaker set collectively are equivalent to your channel equalizer. That is, I can override the high and low settings of Winamp's or iTunes' equalizer if I so choose. As it turns out, that's hasn't been necessary yet and both the bass and treble controls are set to mid range. Likewise, the speakers' volume control is set to mid range, and I use the volume control of Winamp or iTunes to control volume.
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
Bigdog
Posts: 2937
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:15 am

Post by Bigdog »

If I understand this..you are doing all of your sound controlling through your internal computer settings.

I don't do anything in my computer. My experience is from using a PA system with a 16 channel mixing board and a separate 31 band EQ unit. Each individual input channel has it's own 3 band EQ. These are what I use the most, but rarely.

So talking about Winamp & itunes is all Greek to me... :oops: :sorry:

I would guess the principal is the same. It's going to take trial and error. Just play around until the majority of the songs sound exceptable and leave it set on that average.
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
keoni2400
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: Southern California

Post by keoni2400 »

Regarding Greek, Bigdog, Winamp is a multipurpose, media software that can be downloaded and used for free or bought and downloaded. When equipped with a key-changer plug-in, it can be used for karaoke music. A KJ host I know who makes the best sound I and many others in my area have heard in a karaoke venue uses Winamp. Beyond that, I don't know much about his setup because he's not operating in my area now, and I didn't ask him much about his system when I had the chance. On the other hand, iTunes is an audio software made by Apple and is free to download. I guess Apple's intent is that people downloading that software will also download and pay for music tracks provided by Apple. Both Winamp and iTunes contain software-style, ten-band, graphical equalizers. However, iTune's equalizer is a bit more robust. In particualr, iTunes has more canned equalization curves (i.e., curves for classical, jazz, etc) than Winamp. Both allow the user to make his/her own curves and save them. One of iTune's curves is called Vocal Booster. I modified that curve slightly by enhancing the vocal range, which helped the singer's voice in my and one guinea pig's opinions. Based on that experiment and the fact karaoke is mostly about the singer's voice, I conclued rightly or wrongly that a curve of that general shape should be appropriate for a karaoke system with possible tweeks for speaker, mic, and venue issues (e.g., room size/configuration, number of patrons). I hope what I just wrote seems more like English to you. :)

So far as I know, Winamp requires a special karaoke "track", which is actually two tracks. One track is in CDG format and the other in MP3 format. I use Audiograbber to rip tracks from karaoke CDs to my hard drive. I wrote "so far as I know" because I've never looked for another way to play karaoke music using Winamp. I also don't know if the karaoke host I mentioned uses the free version of Winamp or a purchased version. Further, I don't know if he uses Winamp's equalizer or a professional hardware version with slide potentiometers. All things being equal, I think I'd rather use a software equalizer than hardware because its more flexible. Finally, Winamp is now owned by AOL so far as I know.

Here are the URLs for Winamp and iTunes:

http://www.winamp.com

http://www.apple.com/itunes
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
Bigdog
Posts: 2937
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:15 am

Post by Bigdog »

If I used the computer settings and the external EQ...I'll be EQing the EQ settings. :lol:

A 31 band EQ verses a 10 band EQ.

I have more specialized control over more separate individual frequencies. They also make 64 band EQs. That would give you even more control. Bigger is better..

My hosting program Sax & Dottys uses winamp and a key change plug in. But win amp just is used to play the music not adjust it. In my case.

In a PA system the EQ is the last thing the sound goes through before reaching the amplifier. In your computer you are EQing before the mixer.

In my truck the radio has the same EQ pre sets. I usually change them to my ear. Each of us being different and maybe wanting to hear different things.

My setting boost all the frequencies. I want to be able to clearly hear the low, mids and highs. Without over doing any of them to the point of distortion or over powering the others. I try to get a nice blend for the majority of my songs..

As to which is more important to hear better voice or music... I want each to be heard clearly with as much of the frequencies distinct. So that is where the individual channel settings comes into play. The quality of the music is very important. You can tell when KJs have cheap song versions and the ones that have good ones. Most of the bad companies went out of business because nobody bought their discs.

This is the whole reason I am using a PA system that a band would use. It's why I NEVER do a show without tops and subs. Not even in my living room system. I want all my sound to be clear and all the individual instruments to be heard. Not muffled together. The key is to be able to play loud and clear. Not loud and muffled or distorted.
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
keoni2400
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: Southern California

Post by keoni2400 »

Well, Bigdog,

I feel a little bit like Alice. After reading posts on this board, reading e-mails from a "limited" KJ, and talking to others who claim to know something about setting up professional karaoke machines, things just seem to get curiouser and curiouser.

Re: "If I used the computer settings and the external EQ...I'll be EQing the EQ settings.

A 31 band EQ verses a 10 band EQ."

Yes, I know that. That's why I leave my bass and treble settings on my speaker set at neutral settings and only tweak the volume control when necessary. However, my computer setup is really inconsequential. I was only trying to draw an analogy between my setup and the setup used at the karaoke venue in question. As I understand it, the equalizer there was set by an alleged sound engineer and is now guarded night and day by four dragoons. Likewise, the KJ who uses Winamp set up his equalizer (of whatever kind) and admonished his employee KJs never to touch it on pain of death. Consequently, most employee KJs I know about are only allowed to touch speaker and mic volume controls and tweak the reverb as I imperfectly understand the situation. From that information, I conclude the equalizer is the big deal and determines the overall sound quality of a karaoke system operating in a bar venue. Having sung in such settings for over ten years, I know that instrumental music is only played as background music for a few minutes before karaoke starts and between singers. During those times, few people if any focus on the music. However, most of the "audience" perks up when karaoke singers sing. Therefore, it seems to me an equalizer in such a situation should be adjusted to favor the singers.

Re: "Each individual input channel has it's own 3 band EQ."

The above statement of yours is probably the cat's pajamas for whatever you're doing but is absent in all the karaoke scenes I've seen for more than ten years. The only input is from the mics, and only the amplitudes of those inputs are controlled by the KJ. In the venue in question, there's only one volume control for all four mic inputs, which makes no sense to me. I would think there would be an amplitude control for each mic.

Re: "I have more specialized control over more separate individual frequencies. They also make 64 band EQs. That would give you even more control. Bigger is better.. "

Maybe bigger is better in some situations. However, I seriously doubt there's any reason to have a 64-band equalizer in a karaoke bar venue.

Re: "My hosting program Sax & Dottys uses winamp and a key change plug in. But win amp just is used to play the music not adjust it.”

Your above statements are extremely curious to me because in a previous post you indicated no knowledge of Winamp, to wit:

"So talking about Winamp & itunes is all Greek to me..."

Re: "In a PA system the EQ is the last thing the sound goes through before reaching the amplifier. In your computer you are EQing before the mixer."

Well actually, I don't have a mixer per se, for there's nothing to mix at the moment. Perhaps if I connected a mic to my system, I could mix the mic with the karaoke music. At the most, I could consider the bass, treble, and volume controls on my speaker set to be mixer controls. Inasmuch as I leave the bass and treble controls set to neutral, the only "mixing" is done rarely by the volume control. Further, I use my computer to play all sorts of music from classical to pop, jazz, and whatever, some of which is all instrumental and some of which features one singer or more. Different equalizer curves are provided for all those situations, and I use the canned ones and sometime those I've made. A bar-scene karaoke show features only singers 99% of the time and, therefore, only needs one equalizer curve plus or minus some slight tweaks at the mixer and rarely at the equalizer.

In the karaoke venue in question and others of which I have slight knowledge, equalizing sets the overall tone, and the mixer is only used for amplitude and reverb tweaks. Therefore, the setup and operation of the karaoke system is somewhat analogous to my setup. A KJ doesn't have time during a show to do much more than those tweaks, sequence singers, and insert and remove CDs when necessary if a fast show is to be had. Believe me, a fast show is necessary to allow the maximum number of songs to be sung and to prevent boredom between songs. Otherwise, the natives get restless.
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
mnementh
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:41 am
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Post by mnementh »

This is where I'm going to start a big controversy.

My average settings do not change from room to room. Since doing my initial EQ set up and making adjustments early on at each room, I still ended up with average settings. So I never adjust anything but the volume and reverb settings during any show. I call it set-it-and-forget-it.
Actually, no controversy at all.

As I said in my initial post, setting up flat with your audience in the room is an absolute must, as the biggest influence on sound reflections and absorbance will be the humans in the room.

Soooo, once you have a room full of bodies, your setting will stay substantially the same for any venue.

Unless you're at a Knights of Old party, of course and everyone arrives in armour. :mrgreen:


Sandy
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
Bigdog
Posts: 2937
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:15 am

Post by Bigdog »

I'm NOT a computer guru. :shock:

I paid a guru to set up my karaoke computers.

So it's "Win-Greek" to me. I don't know anything about it. I can't turn it on or off. Or open it. I don't want & don't need to. All I know is that Sax & Dottys needs it to run.

I need my kidneys, but that's all I know about them too.


EQ controversy:


I haven't touched it in 16 years. I don't adjust room to room. My system sounds good all the time. Only minor tweaks over the years. I have probably played 100 different rooms in 16 years without room to room adjusting. 99% of the songs sound very acceptable. Average EQ settings.

Volume and reverb. That's it during a show. Always. :shock:
Unlimited MP3+G Downloads
Post Reply