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Too Many Singers and What to do with Them. Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
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Bigdog



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 2772

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:36 am    Post subject: Too Many Singers and What to do with Them. Reply with quote

Last night I had 50 singers and the first rotation was 3 1/2 hours long. Good for the bar but bad for the singers.

Here is what happened. There was a hockey game hold up for a 1/2 hour.

The place was full for the game and there were also singers coming in. There were about 5 singers that gave me song slips before the hockey game ended. So they were the first to sing but before each of them had finished singing I had at least 3 slips for each singer already in the rotation. I just kept on adding them to the line up. This means the first singer didn't get to sing again for 3 1/2 hours.

I'm very sure many singers were mad that night. The first 2 singers came up to say goodbye literally 2 songs before they were to sing again. I told them it would be a shame to wait all that time and not stay to sing. They left. Were they mad at me or the situation? I don't know, but it was probably both.

I know for sure they were there for the start of the karaoke. What I don't know is when all the rest of the singers got to the bar. Some could have been there all night and some could have just walked in. I was way too busy to watch the door and with everyone smoking outside it's literally impossible to know who is new and who has been there. Unless they are literally time stamped on the back of their hand when they first enter the bar.

Should I worry about when the first singers got to sing again? I played until 15 minutes before everyone is legally supposed to be out of the bar at 2:30 AM according to the LCB. The first 10-15 singers would have sang a second time if they stayed.

Normally I would try to end a rotation at some point and start mixing in the new singers with the old ones. And that would be because I knew the new singers may have just walked in the bar. As I said last night it was impossible to tell how long anyone was there.

Would anyone have done it differently? Don't forget the hockey game held up the starting time by a half hour. So that only added to their frustration.

There were many singers that never even put slips in all night so the number of singers could have been even higher. Meaning no second rotation at all.

I felt bad for the first singers but I wanted to make sure as many people as humanly possible sang at least one song. The best part is nobody really got mad and said anything to me about it. There was some complaining (asking) about when they would be up again but what can I say.....I just kept on updating the number of singers in the rotation. It's up to 30-35-40-45....

I wouldn't want that many on a regular basis. I hope the frustrated singers understand that it was a special night and not a regular event, I hope.
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mnementh



Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 672
Location: Dundee, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've no doubt that you've had to tell many people in the past that you operate a strict rotation and it's first come, first served.

Therefore, IMHO, you have to stick to your guns and use the rotation in the manner it'd designed for.

If some of your singers weren't prepared to wait, especially after you kept things going so late, then that's not your problem.

I assume you explained the situation to your regulars, who I also presume understand the "Rotation" system?

Sandy
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Bigdog



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 2772

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First come first served to a point. The rotation has to start over sometime. Last night the pace of the people bringing up slips was crazy.

That works out to 1 slip handed to me everytime a song was sung. One song sung and one more new singer waiting to sing.

Being first to sing and waiting 3 1/2 hours is a long wait. We should have served meals like the airlines.

One person complained to the bar owner he waited 40 minutes to get a drink. Now that could have been stretching it, but it could have been true. The one bartender was swamped. She had to please over a 200 people I only had 50. There could have been way more people. I know I had a hard time fighting the crowd trying to deliver microphones to each upcoming singer to keep the music non stop. There were new faces to try to remember. I'm really surprised I did so well. There were a few lost singers. It's even harder when you have to keep checking outside for the smoking singers. Then trying to figure out who left was even more fun. I had to start a roll call to see who was left 3-4 singers at a time.
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mnementh



Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 672
Location: Dundee, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigdog wrote:

One person complained to the bar owner he waited 40 minutes to get a drink. Now that could have been stretching it, but it could have been true. The one bartender was swamped. She had to please over a 200 people I only had 50. There could have been way more people


Bigdog, you've made the point more than once about incompetent Bar owners and in my view, any Bar owner/manager that left one barmaid to cater for 200 thirsty punters is a complete moron.

He/she should have been behind the bar helping and trying very hard to organise help collecting empty glasses, etc.

As far as the Karaoke is concerned, the rotation rules, end of story.

This is one reason I prefer computer controlled Karaoke, as my program of choice, "Karma", sorts out the rotation automatically.

If a have a long singer list and several of them have multiple songs up, the singer list automatically clocks the songs in strict order, skipping anyone that has no songs against his/her name.

I have standard rules in the front of my books outlining the "Rotation" system and "Do's and Don'ts", Re. use of and profaninity on the mike, etc.

I presume you do, as well?

Sandy
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Bigdog



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 2772

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The owner did get behind the bar for a while, but I don't know for how long or what he was actually doing. But there was an off duty bartender there that offered to work but I don't why she wasn't put on..... I did talk to the owner after hours about what went on and the "staffing" was one topic based on 17 years of my experiences with bars and bartenders and owners.

The KJ is the first one to hear all the bar complaints. I didn't hear anyone say they couldn't get waited on. But that usually happens if it's a regular occurrence. Nobody really complained about not singing again. The things I heard were more of "wow when am I going to be up again?"

My basic rotation question is should I have been concerned with everyone singing at least one song or should I have worried about the first singers singing again? And did anyone actually get mad at me, personally? I really didn't feel that anyone should have been ignored that night. It was not a typical night by any means. I have never been overwhelmed with that many singers.

As far as written rules the song books have them but do they ever get read, that's another issue. There will always be someone complaining about something.
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DanG2006



Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 1160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get upset if there is a long rotation. Only if someone gets up more than another based on whether they can sing or not, a hot girl the KJ wants to get into their pants or a close friend of the KJ. That peeves me off. Stick to the rotation and be honest about whether you think they can get a song in. Man you get them up fast. what's your secret because I'm lucky if I get people up to the mike in less than half a minute due to their not paying attention to the end of the song. I know they should know ahead of time that they are next and should be ready but they seem to always be ordering a drink, outside smoking or worse in the restroom when I call them up to sing.
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Bigdog



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 2772

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanG2006 wrote:
Man you get them up fast. what's your secret because I'm lucky if I get people up to the mike in less than half a minute due to their not paying attention to the end of the song. I know they should know ahead of time that they are next and should be ready but they seem to always be ordering a drink, outside smoking or worse in the restroom when I call them up to sing.


I personally hand each person the microphone when they are next. I don't use a stage and I wait for noone. Unless I can't find you. You get skipped until the next song. Sooner or later I usually get my man, outside smoking or at the other end of the bar or in the restroom.

My Method:

Song's fading out, "That's Bob," a few seconds of clapping for Bob, start the next song. Boom, boom, boom. All night long. Rinse and repeat.
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DanG2006



Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 1160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

719 you are one of the types of KJ's that made me decide to get into karaoke. I have taken shows from people like you because I operate in a first come first served basis. Bribes do fly at my shows. Everyone is treated the same at my shows and they all KNOW it.
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mnementh



Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 672
Location: Dundee, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanG2006 wrote:
719 you are one of the types of KJ's that made me decide to get into karaoke. I have taken shows from people like you because I operate in a first come first served basis. Bribes do fly at my shows. Everyone is treated the same at my shows and they all KNOW it.


Agree 100%! Bribes are bribes, simple as that and in my view are every bit as wrong at a Karaoke as when they are used to circumvent anything else.

You get paid by the venue manager and if that payment isn't enough for the KJ, then he/she should be looking at their prices/show. If punters attempt to bribe a KJ to boost them up the rotation, they should be told in no uncertain terms that it isn't going to happen.

Sandy
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Bigdog



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 2772

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even care if anyone knows my name.

The system sounds great and the music is nonstop. They keep coming back without tipping me. I keep coming back without the tips.

Everyone is treated fairly and nobody is disrespected. I run my show. Not the bar owner or bartender or the singers.

My show is for the singers so it benefits the bar by making them a profit. I charge my fee and the bar owner pays it with the money the singers I bring in for a quality karaoke show.

I don't play filler music or dance sets. Total 100% karaoke for the singers I attract. The nonsingers always outnumber the singers by 2-3-4-to 1. My show is about singers and singing. The more singers I can attract the more money the bar makes. The bigger my reputation gets. The more job offers I get. Any business that doesn't worry about their reputation is doomed to failure sooner or later.

I have buried many loser KJs (Figuratively.) KJs that have big egos that want to sing all night long. That take bribes, that treat everyone unfairly. With crappy systems and no personality. And a total lack of respect for anyone or anything but money.

KJs are not a dime a dozen, for good KJs. Good KJs are a minority. Crap KJs over populate our business. Not many KJs in my area can do what I do with any regularity. And then they fade away. There are literally several hunderd within 25 miles of me. Most couldn't carry my lunch. It's because of them that my pay scale is lower than it should be.

I show total respect for my entire audience and the bar owner and their and my business reputation.

If you are not tring to be something you are not, why are you in a band? Trying to be discovered? A band is a business too and if you don't treat it so it will fail. Unless you weren't planning on going anywhere anyway. Just doing it to make some pin money. You can wash cars for that.

Most people I know that play in bands have an ego and they like the attention that comes with it. I'm good at singing, I'm not great. I won't be discovered or have an album. I'm very good at karaoke and that keeps me workng steady.

Any bar owners that thinks KJs are all the same are idiots. Just like steak ain't hamburger. I can be replaced by anyone, but the crowd will disappear. They are spoiled by quality that others can not deliver. I don't play in any dive just to work. I play in reputable places that anyone can go to safely.

There is rarely any trouble. Alcohol can bring out the jerk in some people at anytime. But I don't attract a rowdy drunk crowd. I don't want to and my goal is to avoid that crowd. Bar owners that don't care about their business reputation will accept any drunk walking. The quality places I play are more worried about keeping them out. Too many police calls and incidents can get you closed down for being a nuisance bar and leave you open for a business losing lawsuit. Seen it happen before.

I'm very happy with my business reputation. I always try to maintain that for me and the bar owner. He has a lot to lose and so do I. That reputation comes from catering to my customers as I want to be treated. I don't want someone messing with my spot in the rotation for a few bucks. I have ethics and I can't be bought so some jerk can run my show. I run my show at all times, nobody else. Not the customers or the bar owner or the bartender. I won't sellout my reputation to anyone for any price. My feet know how to walk and they have done it before and they will do it aqain if needed. I run my show, period. Not someone with a little bit of cash that thinks they are a bigshot. Wait in line like we learned in kindergarden. Share and take your turn. Fairness and respect. Give and get it.
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mnementh



Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 672
Location: Dundee, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigdog wrote:
I don't even care if anyone knows my name.

The system sounds great and the music is nonstop. They keep coming back without tipping me. I keep coming back without the tips.

Everyone is treated fairly and nobody is disrespected. I run my show. Not the bar owner or bartender or the singers.

My show is for the singers so it benefits the bar by making them a profit. I charge my fee and the bar owner pays it with the money the singers I bring in for a quality karaoke show.

Wait in line like we learned in kindergarden. Share and take your turn. Fairness and respect. Give and get it.


Aaah!

The Art of the "real" KJ.

Well said, that man!! All respect to you!

Sandy
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Moonrider



Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

719x wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
719x wrote:
You're wrong. I'm not unethical and I'm not sacrificing my ethics or morals.


You're using the fruit of other people's work to promote yourself on your website without paying them or gaining their permission to do so. Ergo, your actions say otherwise.


Actually, I did pay for all of the songs that are on there, several times over. You're making assumptions again.


You paid the royalties and licensing fees? Yes or No?
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DanG2006



Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 1160
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is oceantracks when you need him. He could explain better what needs to be paid, artist rights for use of the song, sync rights for the graphics etc.
719 did you pay any of those or did you not know that one can get sued for not paying for those rights.
You just can't pay for the album and then make a karaoke track out of it and use it in a commercial environment (your bar). It just does not work that way.
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Moonrider



Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

719x wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
719x wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
719x wrote:
You're wrong. I'm not unethical and I'm not sacrificing my ethics or morals.


You're using the fruit of other people's work to promote yourself on your website without paying them or gaining their permission to do so. Ergo, your actions say otherwise.


Actually, I did pay for all of the songs that are on there, several times over. You're making assumptions again.


You paid the royalties and licensing fees? Yes or No?


I've paid what was needed to be paid to use the works in question, yes.


You have 17 karaoke songs up for download.

Have you:

A) paid the approximately $1500 - $1800US at the statutory rate in mechanical licensing fees (assuming you intend to only allow 1000 downloads of each song),

or

B) been in direct contact with the copyright holder to negotiate a lower rate for the mechanical license

AND

paid and the approximately $4000 - $5000US in synchronization licenses (again assuming 1000 downloads) that you are required to pay to sync the video display of the lyrics crawl to the music.

YES and NO are the only two meaningful answers to this question. Any answer other than YES will be construed as NO.

What you are doing is NOT fair use, it is legally defined as commercial use. I urge you again to seek the advice of a lawyer before you wind up paying far more than what i've outlined above.
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Moonrider



Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

719x wrote:

However, my host is in the Netherlands.

All that stuff you're saying is probably true - But it's nullified by the fact that I'm not serving via US hosts.


Liar.

------------------------------------------------------------

Domain Name: 719x.com
Registered at http://www.dynadot.com

Registrant:
Craig Brittain
2732 Kittyhawk Rd
Colorado Springs, CO 80920
United States

Administrative Contact:
Craig Brittain
2732 Kittyhawk Rd
Colorado Springs, CO 80920
United States
**************@hotmail.com
+1 7192913997

Technical Contact:
Craig Brittain
2732 Kittyhawk Rd
Colorado Springs, CO 80920
United States
**************@hotmail.com
+1 7192913997

Record expires on 2010/08/26 UTC
Record created on 2009/08/26 UTC

Domain servers in listed order:
ns5.dhruvahosting.com
ns6.dhruvahosting.com

----------------------------------------------------------
Domain Name: dynadot.com
Registered at http://www.dynadot.com

Registrant:
Dynadot LLC
PO Box 345
San Mateo, CA 94401
United States

Administrative Contact:
Dynadot LLC
PO Box 345
San Mateo, CA 94401
United States
****@dynadot.com
+1 650-585-1961

Technical Contact:
Dynadot LLC
PO Box 345
San Mateo, CA 94401
United States
****@dynadot.com
+1 650-585-1961

Record expires on 2015/10/30 UTC
Record created on 2002/10/30 UTC

Domain servers in listed order:
ns1.dynadot.com
ns2.dynadot.com
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Last week, I went to Philadelphia, but it was closed.
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